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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 12th-February-2008, 04:20 PM
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Environmental Idiocy of the Day: Jeremy Leggett Edition | Business Blog

"I do love The Guardian sometimes. The way in which their writers manage to get the wrong end of the stick never fails to amuse. Today we have Jeremy Leggett insisting that we've got to have much more subsidy for the renewables industry so that we can compete with Germany. Full of WWII references and all.

But while our German allies are turning out the renewable energy equivalents of Messerschmitts by the factory-load, Britain is again slow to spring into action. Worse, as we learned yesterday, officials responsible for UK mobilisation have told the prime minister it is impossible for us to build modern-day Spitfires in any number.

What he's entirely missed is that we don't actually care who reduces CO2 emissions nor where in the world such reductions come from. If the Germans want to go ahead and reduce them well, carry on Fritz. Please, be our guests. We'll benefit from those reductions just as much as if we'd reduced them ourselves.

In 2006 the cost to the average German household of the tariff was £12 a year. The average UK household paid £7 a year under the renewables obligation, but that delivered significantly less renewable capacity.

Well, OK, less subsidy means less renewable energy. We can see that....but what that means is that the Germans are taxing themselves to benefit us. Hooray! Something to celebrate, not decry, don't you think?

Fell spelt out Germany's success with renewables. In 2000, when he and other parliamentarians pushed through a law to fast-track renewables markets, such sources contributed 6% to the national electricity mix; the target was 12% by 2010. Three years ahead of the target, they are approaching 14% - and have created 200,000 jobs in the process.

And that, I'm afraid, is insane. "Created 200,000 jobs"? The truth is that 200,000 people have been pulled from doing something more useful, curing AIDS perhaps, brewing beer or wiping babies' bottoms, and forced into a lower value activity by the existence of that subsidy.

Usually there's a reason for such idiocy in the advocation of public policy. Sometimes it really is that the proposer is misinformed, possibly even simply dull witted. But this isn't, in my opinion, the case with Leggett. No, you see, he runs a company that installs solar systems. Solar systems that depend upon large subsidies to make them even vaguely attractive to the installer.

If we continue to allow investment to flow uncontested into countries with a renewables vision, UK plc loses out on any prospect of a serious share in the next global business revolution.

Gosh, fancy that, businessman calls for subsidy of his business!"
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 14th-February-2008, 11:17 AM
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I've always thought wind will come unto it's own when they mate it with Hydrogen production. Nothing will compete against it then. Wind will eventually increase in efficiency a lot more, especially since the current wind generators are incredibly inefficient compared to the energy of the wind flowing over it. So solar is now reaching 30% efficiency where as wind is still about less than 1%.

An example is wind or air weighs between 1 to 1.25kgs per cubic metre. So windspeeds at 25ms^1 is equal to 625 to 781N of non cushioned force is hitting the blade of 1 square metre in area.

That's why a backyard inventor can create a decent power producing wind generator.

Come on GE your letting the team down.

I won't bore you with the rest of the details.
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Old 15th-February-2008, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windguy
So solar is now reaching 30% efficiency where as wind is still about less than 1%.
Hi Windguy,

I'd have to disagree there.
Power in the wind can be calculated using:
P(WATTS) = (1/2)*density*Area*(velocity^3)

so for say 10m/s @ 1.225 kg/m^3 we get Power = 612.5 Watts/m sq

From the vestas V90 power curve, the V90 can generate approx 1500kW at 10m/s. This is over the entire swept area of the blades so per m2 = power output / swept area

1500000/6362 = 236W / m sq

which is ~40% of the actual power in the wind. There are some assumptions here but it shows the efficiency is much higher than 1%.

"Backyard" wind turbines are quite easy to make using electric motors that are used in everyday household electronics, plus they are quite simple devices anyway. A solar cell on the other hand obviously requires much more complex processes than jamming a fan on the end of a motor and holding it up high!
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Old 15th-February-2008, 10:20 AM
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You are right, (I wonder if I rounded up right).

But 15ms^1 is usually their starting maximum power output which stays the same until cut off due to damage. So at 25ms^1 each m^2 produces 9570W with the WG producing no more. That means a little over 2% efficiency.

So I was wrong, I'll admit it. But it does show there can be vast improvements to be had.

At 15m/s it shows 2067W/m^2 which is about 15% efficiency. I've got to try and take some discreditation back.

I'm lost, it's been a hard day, maybe one of those small crappy ones I can get the 1 percent efficiency with (tail between the legs). Blame work, wife kids and cars, taking my ball and bat and going home.
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Old 16th-February-2008, 03:49 AM
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haha no worries! don't be so hard on yourself!
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Old 16th-February-2008, 10:06 AM
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For you to simply rebuke my statement like that, are you working in wind industry at all? Have you studied engineering - especially in wind? I'm just curious, because if you have, I'll be firing off a whole heap of questions at you? Only if you like.
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Old 17th-February-2008, 04:02 AM
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When you consider the cost of the Iraq war of over one hundred million dollars per day, you do start to wonder if it could be better spent helping reduce US oil dependency upon the Middle East. I think comparatively in this context wind power is worth while.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 17th-February-2008, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windguy View Post
For you to simply rebuke my statement like that, are you working in wind industry at all? Have you studied engineering - especially in wind? I'm just curious, because if you have, I'll be firing off a whole heap of questions at you? Only if you like.
I do work in the wind industry, haven't studied wind engineering (that course isn't offered in australia to my knowledge). I'm quite junior so I probably won't be a huge help but by all means ask! Perhaps we can nut it out together... my area is energy analysis, wind climate analysis etc

Any other areas (PPA's, planning, turbine mechanics and electronics) we're probably around the same level.
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Old 17th-February-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMagic007 View Post
When you consider the cost of the Iraq war of over one hundred million dollars per day, you do start to wonder if it could be better spent helping reduce US oil dependency upon the Middle East. I think comparatively in this context wind power is worth while.
Isn't it funny how they had also worked out a lousy 12 billion dollars could make the USA a full hydrogen economy. (meaning any vehicles that run on hydrogen can fuel up anywhere. It was based on nuclear power though). Just shows the waste the war was when Iraq could have been curtailed by more friendly means with international pressure. The Iraqis have paid a high price for democracy, lets hope things go well for them eventually.

Remove our dependance from the OPEC's oil and there goes most of our problems.
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Old 17th-February-2008, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atdub View Post
I do work in the wind industry, haven't studied wind engineering (that course isn't offered in australia to my knowledge). I'm quite junior so I probably won't be a huge help but by all means ask! Perhaps we can nut it out together... my area is energy analysis, wind climate analysis etc

Any other areas (PPA's, planning, turbine mechanics and electronics) we're probably around the same level.
One, it's great you live in Australia and two, you are part of the industry. I have been wanting to create some form of a network of people interested in wind. I'll PM you soon.
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