Rock Port, Missouri - The First 100% Wind Powered City

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

False and misleading and therefore wrong.

With respect, your comment:

they expect to produce more power than the town of Rock Port consumes by 3 million kWh

in post #6 is wrong.
Ponder this.
If Rock Port could produce all of the power it needs from the wind turbines, there would be no requirement for a grid connection.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

With respect, your comment:
in post #6 is wrong.
Ponder this.
If Rock Port could produce all of the power it needs from the wind turbines, there would be no requirement for a grid connection.

Now pondered. Not quite so, because although Rock Port purportedly expects to produce more electricity than they consume over the annual period, it's fully acknowledged that grid connection is required for when the wind does not generate sufficient power. So although the articles claim Rock Port expect to generate all the power it needs, ( and they may well do if their figures are reliable ) they realise backup is required during intermittent times of lower than average wind, where the turbines are not generating sufficient electricity to meet their immediate needs.


Thus re-iterating my interpretation of the articles, being that Rockport realises that although they may be able to generate all the electricity they need on an annual basis, they wont always be generating sufficient electricity when they need it and also realise that there may be times when Rock Port may generate excess electricity, which can then be fed back into the grid. Thus I do see their explanations as reasonable as they fully disclose this context.

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Now pondered. Not quite so, because although Rock Port purportedly expects to produce more electricity than they consume over the annual period,fully disclose this context.

I'm afraid it is quite so.
"they expect to produce more power" is incorrect.
As I said, if they had the capability of producing more power than they require, a grid connection wouldn't be needed.
They expect to produce more electrical energy.
It is an important and fundamental distinction evidently not well understood by many, including the jurno who wrote the article cited in post #1.

Power is an instantaneous measure.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

I'm afraid it is quite so.
"they expect to produce more power" is incorrect.
As I said, if they had the capability of producing more power than they require, a grid connection wouldn't be needed.
They expect to produce more electrical energy.
It is an important and fundamental distinction evidently not well understood by many, including the jurno who wrote the article cited in post #1.

Power is an instantaneous measure.

Fundamentally speaking, a unit of power (Watt) is equivalent to a unit of energy (Joule) over a unit of time (Second)

Energy can also be instantaneous. Energy from wind before it's even converted to power, can be instantaneous. Actually, it's a distinction largely of less significance, because power applied over a period of time is energy. More power means more units of power. With regard to electricity, when one speaks about power in the context of time one arrives at another way of describing it called energy, which is equivalent to ( power x time). That is implicit and it equals the same value in the end. But to further prove this point, 1 watt is a unit of power, but it is also equal to a unit of energy known as 1 joule over time of 1 second.

They equal the same thing. A single unit of power is fundamentally seen as a single unit of energy over time, being 1 second. 1 watt = 1 joule over 1 second. They are the same thing, except one is described in the context of over a period of time and the other is described in the context of the embodiment of time. Speaking about sufficient power over a year and kWh over the same year, implies this embodiment of time.

However when describing ( X amount of power ) over a period of ( Y amount of time ) which over the year equals ( Z amount of energy) when this is evaluated, the single units of power over time, add up to and thus equal the single units of energy over time.

Rock Port expects to produce sufficient power over the year being sufficient units or joules of energy or kWhs of energy over the year, which equate to the same total units of energy in terms of joules, but described in kWh being an encapsulation of the time period. Simply speaking 1000 watts over 1 hour = 1 kWh = 3,600,000 joules of 3.6 MJ. Thus when the articles speak about power over time, they are implying units of power over time that equal units of energy.

Rock Port talks about its power expectation in terms of turbine power capacity and talks about being able to meet its annual power requirements and therefore its implied units of power over time being units of energy over time, being the equivalent joules over time equaling the described expected kWh over time. That is the real distinction, but at the end of the day, it's all the same as proven. It's power and its energy all over time. The articles intended meaning is clear.

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Energy can also be instantaneous..

It can't.
That would imply infinite power.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

It can't.
That would imply infinite power.

Not at all. A wind gust is instantaneous and a wind gust contains energy. Thus a wind gust is instantaneous wind energy, thus wind energy can be instantaneous. An instantaneous gust of wind would not supply infinite power. As soon as the gust dies, so would the power.

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Not at all.

Yes, at all.
Around post #34 you said:

Fundamentally speaking, a unit of power (Watt) is equivalent to a unit of energy (Joule) over a unit of time (Second)

So 1W = 1 Joule/s
Instantaneous is an infinitesimally small amount of time.
Thus:
IJ/0s = infinite power

[Besoeker]

Put otherwise, the relationship between the units is:
J = Ws
So energy is power x time.
If the time is zero, the energy is zero.
Energy requires the passage of time, thus it cannot be instantaneous.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

Yes, at all.
Around post #34 you said:

So 1W = 1 Joule/s
Instantaneous is an infinitesimally small amount of time.
Thus:
IJ/0s = infinite power

Originally Posted by Besoeker

Put otherwise, the relationship between the units is:
J = Ws
So energy is power x time.
If the time is zero, the energy is zero.
Energy requires the passage of time, thus it cannot be instantaneous

Not so, as that does not prove that energy cannot be instantaneous. Instantaneous wind gust is a common meteorological term and that gust contains energy. Therefore energy can be instantaneous, even if not fitting with common electrical energy equations. Energy can be released in under 1 second and greater than zero seconds ( being the passage of time ). Energy can thus be instantaneous. The topic of instantaneous energy is also an area of physics, Subsecond Thermophysics and in fact is a term used in Nuclear Physics, among other areas of science and technology. Thus instantaneous energy can and does exist. Therefore contrary to your point, energy can be instantaneous.

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Not so, as that does not prove that energy cannot be instantaneous. Instantaneous wind gust is a common meteorological term and that gust contains energy. Therefore energy can be instantaneous, even if not fitting with common electrical energy equations.

Actually, it does not accord with any equations. Energy can not be instantaneous.

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Energy can be released in under 1 second and greater than zero seconds ( being the passage of time ). Energy can thus be instantaneous.

I think maybe therein is the crux of the matter.
Call the period or passage of time p.
For 0<p<1 as you suggest, p is a finite value. It could, for example, 0.5s, that being the passage of time. That isn't instantaneous.

Going back to your comment in post #35
"Fundamentally speaking, a unit of power (Watt) is equivalent to a unit of energy (Joule) over a unit of time (Second)"
That gives us:
W=J/s
And that gives us the more fundamental definition:
Power is the RATE of doing work. It could be Nm/s, ft-lbf/s, kW etc.
(That applies whether it is electrical, mechanical, or fluid power.)
The rate of doing work.
Energy is what you get from that rate of work over a period of time. No time, no energy.
One kWh can be generated in an hour, a week, or 1ms (1ms being 3.6GW)
But not instantaneously.

An analogy that may be helpful......
Suppose that you drive at a rate of 60kph.
Travel for an hour you do 60km
In a minute, 1km
In a second, 17m
In 1ms, 17mm.

In other words, the rate at which you travel (instantaneous speed) tells you nothing about the distance you will cover unless you define time period. You can't instantly cover 50m.