World running dry

[gerrit]

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

Information about water resources in Arizona for you. http://www.azwater.gov/dwr/Content/P...pplydemand.pdf

For example, you need to learn about transpiration. Lots of the water applied through irrigation gets lost to the atmosphere by being pumped through plants. Unless that water rains back into the same basin it can be totally lost. Secondly, irrigation water can be pumped hundreds of miles away having devastating impacts on water bodies. For example, the problem with the Aral Sea stemmed from diverting water for crop irrigation.

I don't deny this. I said that much of the water from "local irrigation" finds its way back into the system. If water is transported away from its original locality it does not. That would include irrigation water which is pumped from hundreds of miles away.

[gerrit]

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

Information about water resources in Arizona for you. http://www.azwater.gov/dwr/Content/P...pplydemand.pdf

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It does help if you don’t try and put words in my mouth. I never said there was no problem with water extraction from the Great Lakes. I used those figures to put your arguments into perspective. For some reason you have developed a bee in your bonnet about bottled water. I am no fan of bottled water myself, but I don’t see it as the proximate cause of the collapse of the Great Lakes. There are very much larger targets at hand that would have a much greater impact.

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I have a "bee in my bonnet" not just about bottled water taken outside the Great Lakes basin, but also about all water that is taken outside the basin that is used in products packaged in containers holding less than 5.7
gallons of liquid.

Before President Bush signed the "Great Lakes Compact", we could have done something about that.

I would suggest that corporations are extracting a lot more water than you think.

You can't use information from Coca-Cola Press Release Centre and present that as scientific data.

I don't believe you and I shouldn't believe you.

[Cricket Tragic]

Originally Posted by gerrit

I have a "bee in my bonnet" not just about bottled water taken outside the Great Lakes basin, but also about all water that is taken outside the basin that is used in products packaged in containers holding less than 5.7
gallons of liquid.

Before President Bush signed the "Great Lakes Compact", we could have done something about that.

I would suggest that corporations are extracting a lot more water than you think.

You can't use information from Coca-Cola Press Release Centre and present that as scientific data.

I don't believe you and I shouldn't believe you.

So if corporations take water out in containers larger than 5.7 gallons that is OK?

I suggest this is where you miss the main point I am putting here. There is much more to be made from conservation efforts through the large users of water, rather than going after minor users just because you happen to have a thing against corporations.
Given I was able to easily find data (not from corporations, but from Government agencies responsible for water management) showing that all of industrial water use was relatively minor in withdrawing water from the Great Lakes (9% of all water taken and 15% of all consumptive water), companies bottling water are a drop in the bucket of users (so to speak). You are aware of course that the figures I quoted previously were for consumptive water, that is water that does not return to the system?

I am quite comfortable with the data provided by Coca Cola on this point. I have cross checked it with other sources and it matches pretty well. Indeed, their figure is higher than the one given by Maude Barlow, whom you are so enamoured with. The reason I used that source is because it had both figures together – how much water was used in manufacture and how much ended up in containers.

I apologise for bringing the following quote from another thread of yours, but it is pertinent to sources.

Originally Posted by gerrit

If this is true, then that's because the Howard government allowed the private sector to severely botch up the country's water systems; in both water management and enterprise.

It's mentioned quite thoroughly in Maude Barlow's book, "Blue Covenant."

Now I haven’t read Blue Covenant and if this statement of yours is correct, I won’t be reading the book anytime soon. This statement is so far wrong as to show total ignorance of the issues and a total lack of scholarship. The current water crisis in Australia has almost nothing to do with the Howard government, despite their other ills. The proximate cause has been a decade of drought through the Murray-Darling basin and adjacent areas dramatically reducing water holdings in the major dams. The longer standing causes are an over allocation of water out of the system and a lack of infrastructure development (particularly in South East Queensland). Both of these have always been state responsibilities. In fact the Howard government made an attempt to take more control of the Murray-Darling Basin in an attempt to fix one of these issues.

There in lies my major problem. If you don’t get your facts right it is easy for opponents to pick your argument to pieces, you end up achieving nothing.

[gerrit]

[quote=Cricket Tragic;252876

There in lies my major problem. If you don’t get your facts right it is easy for opponents to pick your argument to pieces.[/QUOTE]



Do you think that this is a game? According to "Blue Covenant" and many other sources, companies, such as Coca-Cola and Pepsico, waste enormous amounts of water; much more than you say.

They've been met with fierce opposition in India, Gabon, Australia etc... for squandering local water supplies.

Many of these plants are concentrated in the Great Lakes area. This poses a huge threat to the Great Lakes if they are allowed to divert their many products to other regions and countries because demand will go through the roof.

It would do you well to listen to the Maude Barlow's of the world rather than trusting our corporate infested governments; unless of course, you'e one of them.

[Richard]

I wish I was "one of them". I might actually get paid a decent salaray then. How do I go about becoming "one of them"?

[Cricket Tragic]

Originally Posted by gerrit

Do you think that this is a game?

No, I don’t. Given that my own water supply is entirely dependent on a highly stressed river system and there are no viable alternatives except desalination, I take an intense interest in water issues.

Originally Posted by gerrit

According to "Blue Covenant" and many other sources, companies, such as Coca-Cola and Pepsico, waste enormous amounts of water; much more than you say.

They've been met with fierce opposition in India, Gabon, Australia etc... for squandering local water supplies.

If Maude Barlow says this, I can tell you she is wrong. Coca Cola, Pepsico and their like have not met fierce opposition in Australia for squandering local water supplies. In fact, these companies don’t rate a mention. The big water issues in Australia have been drought, lack of infrastructure development, and cotton and rice. I am fully aware of this because I live there. I could feed you some official statistics on water use in Australia, but I am sure you will just ignore them because they don’t fit your strange view of the world, so I won’t bother – you can look them up for yourself. Go ahead, prove me I am wrong.

Now if Maude Barlow can’t be bothered checking facts on this or simply feels it is OK to make it up, why should I trust anything else she says?

Originally Posted by gerrit

It would do you well to listen to the Maude Barlow's of the world rather than trusting our corporate infested governments; unless of course, you'e one of them.

Good grief, another one of these. Have you ever stopped to wonder why if corporations controlled governments they bother to sell products? Why not just channel all that taxpayers money straight to corporations and save them the bother of doing research and development? Why set up regulatory agencies to make it harder for corporations to make a profit?

The job of government agencies like the US Geological Survey is to gather data for government. The data is some of the best gathered statistical data on offer. What politicians do with the data is an entirely different exercise. In contrast, Maude Barlow is a self-appointed activist whose job it is to scare people in order that funds continue to roll into her favourite cause. Frankly, if she feels she needs to tell lies in order to do this, she is no better than the other activists who believe the ‘ends’ justify the ‘means’ and I have no respect for any of them.

[gerrit]

[quote=Cricket Tragic;252876]

The current water crisis in Australia has almost nothing to do with the Howard government. QUOTE]


Part of the Howard government's ineptitude was in the fact that they failed to monitor the treatment of raw sewage. This has nothing to do with drought.

Australia, however, does have a water crisis. Knowing this, the Howard government still pandered to big business by enacting no limit exporting policies and allowing Coca-Cola plants to spring up all over the country.

[gerrit]

[quote=Cricket Tragic;253090]



If Maude Barlow says this, I can tell you she is wrong. Coca Cola, Pepsico and their like have not met fierce opposition in Australia for squandering local water supplies.

QUOTE]

Yes they have. Why are you lying?


There were even bigger protests in India. On January 20,2005, thousands surrounded 87 Coca-Cola & Pepsi plants all over India and demanded that the companies "Quit India." I suppose that all these people were wrong as well.

In the end, the corporations persuaded government to let them stay.

Yeah, governments are not controlled by big business, my foot.

[Wobs]

Originally Posted by gerrit

In the end, the corporations persuaded government to let them stay.

Yeah, governments are not controlled by big business, my foot.

As someone who has worked on both sides of the fence (authority, and big business), I can tell you that around here (in the UK), your picture of big business and government in collusion are most certainly wrong.

You may cite the case of Cola in India, but to brush other companies, and governments with a similar accusation is a stretch at best.

[gerrit]

Originally Posted by Wobs

As someone who has worked on both sides of the fence (authority, and big business), I can tell you that around here (in the UK), your picture of big business and government in collusion are most certainly wrong.

but to brush other companies, and governments with a similar accusation is a stretch at best.

I'm really only concerned with corporate giants such as Nestle, Coca-Cola and Pepsico who are most certainly trying to expropriate as much water as they can out of the Great Lakes. The Canadian and U.S. federal governments have made no sound laws to stop this. There are many water justice movements that are warning us of this. I live in Ottawa (Canada's capital.) Trust me, I'm not the only one around here that sees these things this way.