Portugal building giant solar farm

[Wobs]

Hydphyll, if what you have put is correct, you seem to have proven my point!

[Gerbil Rebellion]

Originally Posted by Wobs

Hydphyll, if what you have put is correct, you seem to have proven my point!

My figures are correct. As I have said in another thread somewhere a friend of mine runs a lighitng company and he is buying his CFL and LED lighting from China and selling it over here at overly inflated prices. You have to remember he buys in bulk not just single projects. He looked into PV and solar heating as he is an environmental consultant and was thinking about putting a package together for customers. When I saw the prices I too was lured into what looks like a good thing but that was when I found out how much wind energy can make and as I am not a greedy man believe that the £20,000 - £30,000 I would take out of the buisiness was worthwhile, as a 5MW wind farm would make 100's of thousands. Anyway I digress (again!) If I had the space I would quite happily get PV and solar heating panels and sell them cheaply but legislation, power companies, media are keeping the costs high and we think this is a good thing this economic dragon.
Just out of interest how much does a nuclear reactor or a gas power station cost? is it significantly less (including environmental costs) than the same amount of homes having all this fitted? I don't think it is and that there is a smoke screen being put up that going green is soo good and all a fad and all.
Living with the planet is not a fad to be made profit off of and its about time the public woke up to the fact that the alternatives are there and that they are cheaply sourced.

[Gerbil Rebellion]

sorry I forgot 1 price, the price of a 1kW turbine from China is just over £400 a 6kW is about £1200. Now someone is going to slate me for the fact it has to be shipped all that way, well hang on a sec, if it is the cheap labour costs that drive the business people to places like that, why not set places up in Africa or some other place that is cheaper than the UK and not as far to go.

[Centrillium]

Originally Posted by Hydphyll

So where is this £50,000 per unit you claim I just don't see it anywhere I have looked.

£50,000 for an entire solar roof, is what I said, with 100 square metres of PV. From the site you linked to, the price would be £53,600 because you would need 80 units to make 100 square metres (typical roof area on a UK home).

Fair's fair though, and on closer inspection, I see that this much PV isn't necessary. It would deliver 20,000 kWh over the course of a year, allowing for day and night, cloud cover, etc, while a typical household only requires 4,000, so I'll concede that much - £10,000 for a solar roof that would meet household needs, although this makes no allowance for losses in battery storage etc.

The main point remains, however, because the ratio of the cost of PV to the cost of consumed electricity from the grid is still as I said.

Reducing this down to one single unit - the unit you used in your own example, actually a pair - with 80W maximum output and a cost of £1340. Lets consider the question of 'payback time'. Bright sunlight means approximately 660 W/m2, while the UK average is ~110 W/m^2, so divide 80W by six and multiply by 24 hours, to determine that the panel delivers 0.32 kWh per day. £1340 would buy some 40,000 kWh from the grid, so the panel will take 125,000 days - 340 years - to pay itself off. The lifetime of the panel itself will only be 20-40 years so the economics are hopeless.

You claim costs four times lower from China. I hope you don't mind if I say I'd like to see some proof of this before I accept it as fact, but even if its true, that just brings the payback time down from 340 years to 85, still pretty hopeless.

Now on the solar thermal heating kit, there I have no argument, solar thermal heating already makes sense and is a completely different kettle of fish.

[Gerbil Rebellion]

I can see you are tied into restraints of wanting to prove something wrong on cost, unfortunately with too many people thinking that way they will never allow the price to come down. Financial cost is a man made desire, a desire for profit. Environmental cost is the reality and that is what we should measure things in. Anyway it is surely better to have combinations of power sources to feed our hungry appetites for the 50Hz field we surround ourselves with everyday, another unnatural factor in our lives. Remove constraints and evolve and move forward. Remain blinded by constraints and excuses and we all die, no future generations, no US. What a choice

[Centrillium]

Originally Posted by Hydphyll

I can see you are tied into restraints of wanting to prove something wrong on cost, unfortunately with too many people thinking that way they will never allow the price to come down.

You say this, but I think you're ignoring reality if you expect a substantial proportion of homeowners to adopt a technology whose economics are as bad as those of PV. Of course, it is a chicken-and-egg situation as you imply, prices won't come down until there is a demand and there won't be a demand until prices come down. But the fact is that if you insist that the time is right for large-scale deployment of PV, then you're deluding yourself, because the technology isn't ready.

Polycrystalline PV will never be economical next to grid power due to the basic limitations of the manufacturing process. Growing large, pure silicon wafers just cannot be done cheaply enough with current technology, no matter how large a scale of manufacturing you go to. Large-scale PV will have to wait for mature thin-film technology, or something else that's still on the drawing boards.

As I keep saying, I believe in the long-term potential of PV. It is a very promising technology and that is why it deserves substantial R&D funding. Once a PV technology that is viable on a large scale has been proven and demonstrated, it would be appropriate for government subsidies and incentives to help take it down the learning curve into bulk manufacturing and large scale use. But it just isn't ready for that yet.

I don't know about household turbines, but like I said, solar thermal heating is a great idea and it should be more widely used. If I were a homeowner, I would certainly consider fitting solar thermal heating systems.

[Gerbil Rebellion]

Centrillium the way we percieve reality is the thing, I am not going to push my beliefs on you as that is just a form of fascism, but I feel I should explain them as I see the world very differently from you and the man made system that creates fear in one form or another. I do not beleive that the current economic, political and religious systems have our real interests at heart and that there needs to be a change. I have a good understanding of how the business system works as I have run a few and have studied the laws and systems in place for business'. I respect the fact that what you see around you is what you beleive is real and have no problem with that as long as you can respect my beliefs as well, you see I only realised why all my life I saw things differently in the last few years, so it is new to me, compared to my 30 other years of life.

[August]

Uhmmmm. - Here comes the sun. -

HydPhyll. The current economic, political and religious systems work like intended. These three sectors, continuously at work in close co-operation with the media, form a perfectly balanced control system that is meant to make sure that no changes what-so-ever to the human social organism can be arranged. - For instance: According to Michel Foucault the control system is naturally fascist in that the rules, the laws, political, economic and social / cultural / religious technicalities at work inside the neatly knit web of official roles, makes sure that everyone who is working inside the system is constantly making use of his / her expertise in such a way that the system itself can maintain itself. -

Link to written source: Michel Foucault: "Madness and civilization"

If you're very interested in the topic outlined above, perhaps you should also read F. G. Bailey: "Humbuggery and manipulation"

[Gerbil Rebellion]

Originally Posted by August

Uhmmmm. - Here comes the sun. -

HydPhyll. The current economic, political and religious systems work like intended. These three sectors, continuously at work in close co-operation with the media, form a perfectly balanced control system that is meant to make sure that no changes what-so-ever to the human social organism can be arranged. - For instance: According to Michel Foucault the control system is naturally fascist in that the rules, the laws, political, economic and social / cultural / religious technicalities at work inside the neatly knit web of official roles, makes sure that everyone who is working inside the system is constantly making use of his / her expertise in such a way that the system itself can maintain itself. -

Link to written source: Michel Foucault: "Madness and civilization"

If you're very interested in the topic outlined above, perhaps you should also read F. G. Bailey: "Humbuggery and manipulation"

There is one thing that is wrong with what you say even though I agree in principle. The way in which the man made systems keep us in check in this life are not natural. It is more a system of control for the small few, a way of letting the population think they have choice and freedom. Even though everything is interlinked we are made to departmentalise and compartmentalise everything and so we are led away from the truth, as I discuss my beliefs in other threads. But hey this is only my opinion based on research in many areas of life (not just social sciences either). I have not read that book but I will look for it as it sounds like a good yarn

[August]

Originally Posted by HydPhyll

There is one thing that is wrong with what you say even though I agree in principle.

Agreed. It is in no way natural. - But: Please bear in mind that Foucault was a political philosopher and sociologist who laid down the bulk of his intellectual work effort in the 1960s and 70s. - The above argument came forth as a natural fact to him. And not to me. I am, of course, more inclined to calling it a bloody nuisance. Especially now that I feel so strongly that the only solution available to us is CHANGE. - - Bittersweet as it is.