Green Peace Leader Rags on Solar Power

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by Windguy

I saw flywheel.

Yes I thought an easy way of winning burnout comps was to put in a dirty big flywheel into a vehicle and by the time it slows down, the wheels would have popped and people would be amazed. A a fast spinning flywheel can contain a massive amount of energy but isn't too practical.

Some information here
Urenco's kinetic energy storage system is now commercially viable: from its initial proof of principle in a demonstration for London Underground in 2000, Urenco Power Technologies' kinetic energy storage system has become a commercially viable energy
I had a look at some of these in their works - we made the power supply for the dc bus they mention. I can't tell you much more than that - it's commercially sensitive stuff.

Originally Posted by Windguy

You've also said the magic word of supercapacitors which I believe will have nearly unlimited possibilities.

Yes, ½ Cv2
Supercapacitors may possibly be super in terms of their power density. Their low voltage is something of a limitation.

Originally Posted by Windguy

Upon the idea of utilising electricity better, we haven't been able to push past even 5% in renewables so it hasn't been needed. Due to normal fluctuation of electricity usage though most hot water systems turn on after midnight. (an estimated low usage time)

I think that's a good point. Load scheduling would be one way to make better use of existing generating capacity. Maybe if we could convince everyone to operate on a shift pattern............but don't nick my idea.

[prashamk]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

Many inverters are true on-line, double conversion. Their output is permanently connected to the load which they continue support during a mains outage at least for the period of their autonomy. The energy for this comes from batteries.

This means that we don't have to make any new setting if we install a good inverter. Excess energy shall be stored in it and shall be released once the main power from grid is reduced. Thats great.

Originally Posted by Besoeker

Most of the ones we have supplied, typically 20kVA for three hours, the batteries have been valve regulated lead acid, VRLA. It's a lot of batteries...about 4 tonnes of them.

That's what I said before. The batteries that we have today still resemble to the ones produced in 80s. If we can produce compact batteries that can store lots of energy (atleast equivalent to 3-5 days of average household consumption). If we can overcome this problem, we can have whole new world of opportunities.

What say?

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by prashamk

That's what I said before. The batteries that we have today still resemble to the ones produced in 80s. If we can produce compact batteries that can store lots of energy (atleast equivalent to 3-5 days of average household consumption). If we can overcome this problem, we can have whole new world of opportunities.

What say?

There are new battery developments, particularly for automotive applications. But they are generally very expensive. Much more than the VRLA type.
And even sizing the VRLAs to provide 5 days of average household consumption (for UK) would cost more than 40 times my annual electricity bill. Typical VLRA batteries for commercial use have a ten year life.
At the moment, the economics just don't stack up to give you what you are suggesting.

[prashamk]

That is exactly what I am saying. If this becomes possible lots of trouble that we are facing with renewable technologies can be sorted out.

I already know that there is no viable storage device at present but I am pressing that we need to channelize our energies in development of storage devices and not to find new technology or improvise them.

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by prashamk

I already know that there is no viable storage device at present but I am pressing that we need to channelize our energies in development of storage devices and not to find new technology or improvise them.

Two points.
If we want affordable energy storage to meet electrical requirements at a domestic level, we will need technology we don't have currently.

At a national level, there are some vast energy storage systems. Itaipu (14,000 MW) and the Three Gorges (projected to be 22,000 MW) spring to mind.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

OK.
If you won't come up with an answer, that's fine.
If you can't come up with an answer, that's fine too.

It's not that I cant, but I won't bother replying in elaborate detail to stupid and baited and childish statements.

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

It's not that I cant, but I won't bother replying in elaborate detail to stupid and bated and childish statements.

Whatever.
Perhaps you should take heed your own comment:

That's fine by me and I will better use my time.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by prashamk

This means that we don't have to make any new setting if we install a good inverter. Excess energy shall be stored in it and shall be released once the main power from grid is reduced. Thats great.

That's what I said before. The batteries that we have today still resemble to the ones produced in 80s. If we can produce compact batteries that can store lots of energy (atleast equivalent to 3-5 days of average household consumption). If we can overcome this problem, we can have whole new world of opportunities.

What say?

We do have batteries typically used with solar PV systems, that can store the required energy, it's just that they are relatively expensive. i.e such as Deep Cycle AGM, Lead Acid and GEL Batteries. These are common place and have been for years and typically but not exclusively applicable to off grid applications. Not the most environmentally friendly either I might add. These batteries are falling in price though, but I suspect are unlikely to be adopted on mass. Things just don't move that quickly anyway. With that said, I don't think there will be an on mass solution with renewable energy, because environmental conditions vary more with that type of technology and thus influence the nature of the technology applied.

Other methods are under development such as heat engines with additional thermal storage, being much cheaper than battery storage. Making hot water or other fluid is one of the cheapest ways to use solar energy and it can be relatively cheaply stored. Thus yes the technology and know-how does exist today, but its not mainstream. Fuel cells another technology that could play a greater domestic role over the next decade. Biomass energy another component with potential. As I indicated, we are in a turbulent period of cost dynamics with rising fossil fuel prices, carbon trading and or carbon taxes, renewable energy targets looming etc... which I think could make a range of renewable energy technologies more competitive in the market. A hybridized convergence of domestic energy technology seems to me, where things may eventually lead.

The market for electric energy storage worth $2.6 billion in 2008 news on the Electrical news magazine

The electric energy storage (EES) core storage technologies of pumped hydro storage, compressed air energy storage, lead-acid batteries, sodium sulfur batteries, vanadium redox flow batteries, flywheels, superconducting magnetic energy storage and supercapacitors are positioned to make a significant impact over the next 5 years. These technologies can be deployed in various applications along the power chain including use in bulk generation, transmission and distribution, as well as providing enhanced services for the end user.

I expect over the next few years, new standards might emerge for domestic electrical energy storage. There really an imperative for us to make the changes to our energy mix and that is taking effect today, all be it still in a relatively early stage of comparative development, when compared to conventional energy delivery methodologies. If the science is right about Climate Change and mans contribution to it, particularly regarding CO2 emissions, then the imperative for change is likely to be an empowering catalyst for us to place higher values on technologies that can help abate the consequences of climate impact. Most of the world now seems to believe that we really are facing real serious problems with climate and environmental issues. So serious in fact, that government policies are changing and driving the adoption of new energy technologies.

When you combine these technologies with grid backup, you have the potential for practical working solutions, that is primarily dictated by cost dynamics. With that said, bear in mind that what's practical in one situation may not be in another. Similarly one country or geographic region may be better suited to a certain type of technology which may differ from that best suited to another. Scope of application another important consideration. It seems unlikely there will ever be a one pill for all applications solution with renewable / hybrid energy applications, certainly not in the near future, but things are changing. Lets face it from empirical observation alone, one could surmise that a significant segment of the worlds population lives in conditions that could be improved by even modest application of simple solar based energy technologies.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

Whatever.
Perhaps you should take heed your own comment:

I do, as indicated.

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

I do, as indicated.

If that's what you think, then good for you.
Go in peace.