Green Peace Leader Rags on Solar Power

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Actually there is practical means of electrical storage in certain situations,

OK. What means did you have in mind?

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

OK. What means did you have in mind?

Use your imagination

[prashamk]

Originally Posted by Windguy

Instead of just electrical storage, electrical usage can be enhanced. How you would do that is certain plug outlets in peoples houses only switch on when there is plenty of electricity from windy or sunny day.

An idea is for electric cars to be plugged into these sockets until one hour before they are needed are transfered to the base loading power. Everything can be done electronically so you don't need two positive and two negative lines to each house.

So when there is excess electricity produced, electric cars and hot water systems turn on and when there is none, they don't use a drop of electricity unless they are needed within a certain time, then it will switch to base power the hour before it is needed. We can literally throw about 30% of our energy usage onto when available if we wanted. i.e. how about a battery backup refridgerator where if it drops below a certain temperature it may use base power, otherwise it uses excess power, clock radios, radios, etc, etc.

Though most of the above looks good while reading, how it would work out in practical is a big question mark.

Is it possible to place some storage device at every house that actually stores the excess energy and which is used up when supply from grid is a bit low?

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Use your imagination

There is no practical means of storing electrical energy.
If you claim otherwise, surely you must think you have a basis for that claim?
Why don't you just state it?

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Besoeker

There is no practical means of storing electrical energy. If you claim otherwise, surely you must think you have a basis for that claim? Why don't you just state it?

I will let you satisfy yourself one way or the other. Makes no difference to me. Not my business to convince you and I wont bother trying and elaborating to the nth degree. Believe what you wish. That's fine by me and I will better use my time.

[prashamk]

I am sure all of extperts might be knowing about Inverters. It generally stores some energy from the main line and when power from grid isn't available it becomes source of energy.

Cann't we change its mechanism a bit?

Its already storing energy, but if it can be made to work along with the power from grid (ofcourse when the power from grid is low) lots of problems can be solved I think.

What say?

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by prashamk

Though most of the above looks good while reading, how it would work out in practical is a big question mark.

Is it possible to place some storage device at every house that actually stores the excess energy and which is used up when supply from grid is a bit low?

I think the term practical needs to be seen in context of application. Today houses use gas, and electricity for domestic needs in varying balances according to what's practical for their situation. I don't think there will ever be a best fits all situation and there never has been. Obviously grid tied urban environments have the greatest degree of flexibility in choosing the mix of conventional energy they use.

Nothing is set in stone though and cost dynamics of all options are a changing over time. What we claim today may be less applicable 12 months from now in terms of cost. We are entering a turbulent period of cost dynamics with regard to energy supply. Obviously to a very large degree, cost drives pragmatism of application. Carbon taxes will eventually influence that cost dynamic, along with rising fossil fuel prices. Thus the notion of practical is not really something one can tie down for eternity and even when applied today, still needs to be seen in context of application.

For example more remote geographic locations may find the cost dynamic of energy storage in varying forms to be more practical, than paying for a grid connection, which in some cases cost tens of thousands of dollars, just to connect to the grid. For urban dwellers it may be less practical on cost terms, but the cost dynamics is changing all the time and its no longer practical that the status quo remain where we don't cost for carbon and other environmental pollutants, that ultimately cost us in other ways, such as Climate Change, productivity of lands, etc... which again is the very reason for the renewable energy push, i.e. to help reduce our greenhouse and other environmentally degrading impacts.

Thus if we project ourselves forward, what's been seen as practical today and in the past, is not what we are aiming for by 2050. The reality is what we do today and have done in the past, we no longer see as practical. We are thus caught in a state of impracticality, which is again why the world is trying to change its ways. We are reacting to the need for change. Thus in making the assessment of what's practical you need to consider, where you have been, what you are doing and where you are going.

I don't think its quite as straight forward as saying, hey we have this new wonderful technology, lets role it out to every household. By the time we get there, we will be looking beyond, because the goal posts will have likely shifted once again. Such as the nature of the ongoing struggle of man with the elements and hopefully not against them, as more characterized mans interaction with nature in the past.

I won't single out one technology because as mentioned context of use and cost dynamics are subject to strong variability in this time of uncertainty, more so than perhaps historically the case. You might find this small piece of info worth a look in terms of projections and direction of such technology. I also agree as mentioned by WG, that energy usage optimisation can be explored further. i.e the way we use energy, the combinations of solutions and synchronicity of operation etc..

The market for electric energy storage worth $2.6 billion in 2008 news on the Electrical news magazine

The electric energy storage (EES) core storage technologies of pumped hydro storage, compressed air energy storage, lead-acid batteries, sodium sulfur batteries, vanadium redox flow batteries, flywheels, superconducting magnetic energy storage and supercapacitors are positioned to make a significant impact over the next 5 years. These technologies can be deployed in various applications along the power chain including use in bulk generation, transmission and distribution, as well as providing enhanced services for the end user.

In the mean time I think you might have to evolve your own view as to what you see as practical, based on your frame of reference. I expect I better don the body amour now.

[Windguy]

I saw flywheel.

Yes I thought an easy way of winning burnout comps was to put in a dirty big flywheel into a vehicle and by the time it slows down, the wheels would have popped and people would be amazed. A a fast spinning flywheel can contain a massive amount of energy but isn't too practical.

You've also said the magic word of supercapacitors which I believe will have nearly unlimited possibilities.

Upon the idea of utilising electricity better, we haven't been able to push past even 5% in renewables so it hasn't been needed. Due to normal fluctuation of electricity usage though most hot water systems turn on after midnight. (an estimated low usage time)

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

I will let you satisfy yourself one way or the other.

OK.
If you won't come up with an answer, that's fine.
If you can't come up with an answer, that's fine too.

[Besoeker]

Originally Posted by prashamk

I am sure all of extperts might be knowing about Inverters. It generally stores some energy from the main line and when power from grid isn't available it becomes source of energy.

Cann't we change its mechanism a bit?

Its already storing energy, but if it can be made to work along with the power from grid (ofcourse when the power from grid is low) lots of problems can be solved I think.

What say?

Many inverters are true on-line, double conversion. Their output is permanently connected to the load which they continue support during a mains outage at least for the period of their autonomy. The energy for this comes from batteries.
Most of the ones we have supplied, typically 20kVA for three hours, the batteries have been valve regulated lead acid, VRLA. It's a lot of batteries...about 4 tonnes of them.