Radical Depopulation Of The Earth - The Solution To Mankind's Problems?

[imp]

Originally Posted by wmiddlemas

Who says that you can't educate your children ? You can educate your children to your heart's content, but somebody ( in this case the state) has to set a standard - some measure that your homeschooling is meeting some minimum criteria otherwise your children's exemplary homeschooling cannot be formally acknowledged or recognized by the rest of society and would therefore become virtually worthless. You would be denying your children the freedom of achieving economic well being.

Re taxes: If the government doesn't have the right to tax, then are you saying that there should be no government ? There are freedoms everyone gives up for the guaranteed freedoms that the government ensures, freedom of speech, press, security, economic well-being etc. There are many programs that I pay taxes for that I object to, either in scope or basic concept, i.e. militarism, non-secular supported government programs, but I pay nonetheless, because first I must if I am to be a citizen, and secondly, in the case of the United States and most industrialized countries the benefits of government programs outweigh the disadvantages of taxes.

As to high taxes, I refer back to the Scandinavian countries especially Norway and Sweden: no one can say that the Scandinavian people are not free: They have perhaps the greatest liberty, security and protected fundamental rights of anyone on the planet, and yet they pay very high taxes. So much for the low tax = high prosperity; high tax = low prosperity theory.

As far as free speech is concerned: this is not a black and white issue either. I think the American Republican party - the mythical guardian of individual freedoms, are the first to restrict "vulgarity" and thus free speech on American broadcast media if they disagree with it. Hell they have tried to eliminate Public Television for decades because they disagree with the balanced but sometimes reporting of misguided conservative policies; then there are countless instances where public employees have been disciplined for expressing views contrary to government doctrine or simply exposing fraud. Finally, it is scandalous how government scientists have had their documents and free speech altered by government bureaucrats because they express truths that the government deems embarrassing.

No, there are many basic "freedoms" and rights that people think they have in the US but in truth only exist for some. A couple of examples: Right to privacy - that does not exist for sure the Bush Administration made sure of that. Fair and open trials: If you are wealthy, you get a fair trial, if you are poor and charged with a serious crime, it is likely that you are going to jail or worse whether you are guilty or innocent. Right to equal education opportunities: If you live in the inner city, forget it, you will be lucky to pull yourself out of the poverty spiral. If you are wealthy, then you will have access to the best schools in the country and an open invitation to the best universities and a life of leisure and wealth. Look at George Bush ! Right to basic health care: We all know the story on this one.... it doesn't exist for more than 50 million Americans. I could go on, but the list is too long ...

We'll this will obviously descend into a clasic left-right argument. But a few points:

1. Homeschooling does NOT require state monitoring in Texas. Most leftists are not up on the latest in homeschooling so I understand that you may not know about the rapidly growing population of homeschoolers being accepted into top American Universities without completing a single standardized test.

2. Eliminating Public Television is meant to support free speech. Why should the state subsidize the speech of a select group? Not everybody wants a "Pravda" equivalent in the US.

3. Sweden is an economic basket case that is imploding under its own socialism. There is no prosperity there. Norway is rich. They have many socialist policies and they are rich. Why is that? Because they are nearly 1/100th the size of the US and they found oil. In other words they got lucky.

4. Notice that it is government scientists who are silenced, not private sector scientists. In other words the government can silence its own employees when they do work that is not what the government, their employer, wants them to do. Private companies do the same with their own employees. Actually these scientists are free to speak, they just have no right to keep their job. This is another concept that leftists have a hard time understanding.

It fundamentally comes down to whether you appreciate "positive rights" or "negative rights". Leftists believe, with positive rights, that people are entitled to receive things from the government. Most right wingers believe that mostly "negative rights" should be enforced in good government - i.e. people are only entitled to be free from people doing something restricting their right to be free. An example would be that people have a right not to be killed, or hurt, or have their stuff stolen.

[August]

Originally Posted by wmiddlemas

... no one can say that the Scandinavian people are not free: They have perhaps the greatest liberty, security and protected fundamental rights of anyone on the planet, and yet they pay very high taxes.

According to Statistisk Sentralbyrå (Statistics Norway) there are about 300.000 Norwegian citizens who live off a disability pension. On top of that, more than 120.000 ordinary adult Norwegians receive social welfare allowances. All in all, we're talking about 10% of Norway's total population. Counting off children, youth, and elderlies, and dealing strictly with people who are in the age group that is, ordinarily, expected to make up the work force of any country, we are, as a matter of statistical fact, talking about more than 25% of the adult population! That is to say that 25% of adult Norwegians are, for a host of different reasons, shut out and expelled from the ordinary work-and-income-based economy. - And these people are not free! - Check it out.

Wealth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those with the least amount of wealth are the welfare poor. Wealth accumulation for this class is to some extent prohibited. People that receive AFDC transfers cannot own more than a trivial amount of assets, in order to be eligible and remain qualified for income transfers. Most of the institutions that the welfare poor encounter discourage any accumulation of assets.

-

[wmiddlemas]

Well when you are talking about Texas, I am not surprised, it is the home of most of the corruptNeanderthals currently raping the United States. Nevertheless, home schooling should be monitored there, as it is in almost all the other States.

Sweden's Economy is a basket case ? It is doing a hell of a lot better than the US economy right now with a budget surpluse in 2007 and a project surplus in 2008. Unemployment is a bit of a problem as it is in most European Countries, but inflation is only 1.5% and they are paying down their National Debt. Sounds like an economy to emulate to me.

Eliminating Public Television has always been on the Right Wing agenda because it sometimes broadcasts dissenting views. But it is always balanced so what is wrong with that ? The amount of subsidy it receives is a paltry $300 million dollars. Many private institutions receive government help, Universities, individuals, private companies, etc. Considering the scope and quality of programming Public Television is definitely high value for the money.

I know it is the government scientist that are silenced, but to silence public employees for speaking the truth because you don't like the message is politicization of the Public Service which, incidentally, is not legal. It is just one of the hundreds laws broken or ignored by our Neanderthal President and his cronies.

I believe that people should be accountable as well as the government. I believe that the government should help those who are deserving. Individuals are as deserving of Government help as corporations, who receive government help all of the time and 68% of them don't pay taxes ! The argument could be made that why should the government help a corporation that doesn't pay taxes. The Right Wingers love to stomp folks who less fortunate and receive government help, but applaud government assistance to corporations that are being badly managed and probably should go out of business.

[August]

I will have to caution people against making idyllic claims about the state of things in the Nordic state capitalist political-economic regimes. What's actually taking place in the Nordic countries - and have been taking place since the 1980s - is a large-scale creation of social clients and disability pensioneers. No wonder, really, as such a lot of people (tax payers) are at work in the health and social welfare sectors of our Nordic societies. They NEED A LOT OF PEOPLE inside the poverty trap of being forever lost in the welfare class: people who shall always be in need of social workers' and a lot of health beaurocrats' help and assistence. As a matter of unfortunate fact, it is these people's - these tax-payers - goddamn jobs we are talking about here! Therefore, through the well-known sociological mechanisms of clientification and institutionalisation, we see that more than 25% of the people who are in the working age are actively shut out of the work-and-salary-based economy, and sentenced to a life of poverty and a constant need of somebody else's stupid help.

You are talking about Neanderthal politicians in the USA. Now, we have the same Neanderthals at work in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, and Finland, too. In Norway, I believe the most important of all Neanderthals are to be found in the Ministry of Labour and Social Inclusion, the Ministry of Health and Care Services, and the Ministry of Local Government and Regional Development.

Government.no - regjeringen.no

[wmiddlemas]

You better than I know the State of the Scandinavian social welfare system. It is certainly at the far end of the spectrum, and I suspect that the best system exists somewhere in the middle of being on your own as in the United States and the cradle to grave mentality of government entitlements expected in the Scandinavian countries. The point I was really trying to make though, is that high taxes and an aggressive social welfare state do not necessarily spell disaster to an economy as the far right in the United States would have one believe. The militarism and overt Nationalism of the far right in the United States does far more harm and enriches the few while impoverishing the many.

[imp]

Originally Posted by wmiddlemas

Well when you are talking about Texas, I am not surprised, it is the home of most of the corruptNeanderthals currently raping the United States. Nevertheless, home schooling should be monitored there, as it is in almost all the other States.

Sweden's Economy is a basket case ? It is doing a hell of a lot better than the US economy right now with a budget surpluse in 2007 and a project surplus in 2008. Unemployment is a bit of a problem as it is in most European Countries, but inflation is only 1.5% and they are paying down their National Debt. Sounds like an economy to emulate to me.

Eliminating Public Television has always been on the Right Wing agenda because it sometimes broadcasts dissenting views. But it is always balanced so what is wrong with that ? The amount of subsidy it receives is a paltry $300 million dollars. Many private institutions receive government help, Universities, individuals, private companies, etc. Considering the scope and quality of programming Public Television is definitely high value for the money.

I know it is the government scientist that are silenced, but to silence public employees for speaking the truth because you don't like the message is politicization of the Public Service which, incidentally, is not legal. It is just one of the hundreds laws broken or ignored by our Neanderthal President and his cronies.

I believe that people should be accountable as well as the government. I believe that the government should help those who are deserving. Individuals are as deserving of Government help as corporations, who receive government help all of the time and 68% of them don't pay taxes ! The argument could be made that why should the government help a corporation that doesn't pay taxes. The Right Wingers love to stomp folks who less fortunate and receive government help, but applaud government assistance to corporations that are being badly managed and probably should go out of business.

I'll only address one of your comments, since it is a classic case of a liberal trying to change the way things are measured so that capitalism looks bad. You try to equivocate the discussion of the US economy and the Scandanavian economy. An economy is judged by the prosperity of its citizens, the best measure of which is GDP per capita, and not by the magnitude of a surplus/deficit. As much as I disagree with most deficit spending, having a deficit or not having a deficit is NOT how an economy is judged. You did mention unemployment rate, which I think is the best measure of how well the economic prosperity is shared. In this measure you are right - Sweeden is much worse than the US. And, as August points out, there is an entire sub-class of people that develops AND GROWS in the welfare state, and these people will need government help for the rest of their lives.

You must lead a charmed life. If your favorite team loses a sporting match when the score is considered, you just change focus to that measure in which your team did do well (e.g. our uniforms were better, our team had more shots,etc.)

[wmiddlemas]

Originally Posted by imp

I'll only address one of your comments, since it is a classic case of a liberal trying to change the way things are measured so that capitalism looks bad. You try to equivocate the discussion of the US economy and the Scandanavian economy. An economy is judged by the prosperity of its citizens, the best measure of which is GDP per capita, and not by the magnitude of a surplus/deficit. As much as I disagree with most deficit spending, having a deficit or not having a deficit is NOT how an economy is judged. You did mention unemployment rate, which I think is the best measure of how well the economic prosperity is shared. In this measure you are right - Sweeden is much worse than the US. And, as August points out, there is an entire sub-class of people that develops AND GROWS in the welfare state, and these people will need government help for the rest of their lives.

You must lead a charmed life. If your favorite team loses a sporting match when the score is considered, you just change focus to that measure in which your team did do well (e.g. our uniforms were better, our team had more shots,etc.)

Not so fast. Sweden's unemployment rate is not MUCH worse it is only a little worse - about 6.2% and coming down versus 5.2% and rising for the US.

Second point - the deficit may not be THE measure of economic prosperity but it is certainly a factor as continued deficits, as in the case of the US, will eventually undermine the economy and lower the standard of living.

There may be a sub class of welfare recipients, but isn't that is better than having millions of homeless people in the streets as in the US ? There are no malnourished people in Sweden as there are in the US - so the underclass and middle class in the US is MUCH worse off than in Sweden.

[imp]

Originally Posted by wmiddlemas

Not so fast. Sweden's unemployment rate is not MUCH worse it is only a little worse - about 6.2% and coming down versus 5.2% and rising for the US.

Second point - the deficit may not be THE measure of economic prosperity but it is certainly a factor as continued deficits, as in the case of the US, will eventually undermine the economy and lower the standard of living.

There may be a sub class of welfare recipients, but isn't that is better than having millions of homeless people in the streets as in the US ? There are no malnourished people in Sweden as there are in the US - so the underclass and middle class in the US is MUCH worse off than in Sweden.

How Poor Are America's Poor? Examining the "Plague" of Poverty in America

A large percentage of people living in "poverty" in the US own their own home, have 2 cars, and two televisions. Is that poverty?

There are not millions of homeless in the US.

[imp]

Originally Posted by wmiddlemas

Not so fast. Sweden's unemployment rate is not MUCH worse it is only a little worse - about 6.2% and coming down versus 5.2% and rising for the US.

Second point - the deficit may not be THE measure of economic prosperity but it is certainly a factor as continued deficits, as in the case of the US, will eventually undermine the economy and lower the standard of living.

There may be a sub class of welfare recipients, but isn't that is better than having millions of homeless people in the streets as in the US ? There are no malnourished people in Sweden as there are in the US - so the underclass and middle class in the US is MUCH worse off than in Sweden.

How Poor Are America's Poor? Examining the "Plague" of Poverty in America

A large percentage of people living in "poverty" in the US own their own home, have 2 cars, and two televisions. Is that poverty?

There are not millions of homeless in the US.

[krystof]

Originally Posted by GreenGoblin

I am amazed by how many people I talk to and how many posts I see on the forums these days that agree with the "need" to reduce the population. It seems like everyone is going crazy! I see calls for a "one child policy", calls for making large families an "eco-crime" and calls for eliminating 90 percent of the earth's population all over the internet.

I have not read the articles quoted by GreenGoblin so I'm not sure whether he has a point or not. However my little opinion:

1. Anyone who drives down any highway of the USA and does not think there are too many people and too little natural ecosystem--is crazy.

2. Anyone who looks out the window in any city of the USA and does not think there are too many people--is crazy.

3. I visit relatives every year in Java, Indonesia, which is ten times more overpopulated. They all seem to think that everything is just fine. I think they are crazy.

4. However those people are the vast majority and they obviously think that I am crazy.

5. However I fail especially to understand how anyone might claim to understand the problems of deforestation, pollution, habitat destruction, and yet seemingly think that all of this is solved by having 2-4 children and teaching them all to drive a hybrid and recycle their bottles.