organic/gm co-existence

[screener]

Cricket tragic, You are right about the source of the energy used to make chemical fertilizer. If a renewable energy is used to produce it, and the rest of the process can be made sustainable, then it would be a sustainable fertilizer. It might even go a long way to becoming an organic approved fertilizer. As you say though it looks like it would be considerably more expensive with forseeable technology.

There is a considerable amount of land in this area, the north-west plains of Canada, that has been removed from grain production, the same is true in countries across the development spectrum. The cost/price squeeze forcing farmers to abandon their farms or change their income source. If the GM seed companies, fertilizer, pesticide, machinery, fuel, grain handling, transportation, banking etc. companies didn't see fit to gang up and take all of the bread, Murray Mcloughlin (sp?) there would be a lot more farmers in production today. There would be a lot more young farmers, and a lot more grain produced. Enough to feed the world, without hesitation.

In the event that a shortfall develops later as the population grows, there is the possibility of cutting back on livestock feeding of grains, as opposed to taking land out of forests, or starving.

[Cricket Tragic]

screener, it is fairer to say that using other energy sources to make fertilizer is more expensive with TODAY’S technology. It may also be more expensive with a new technology, but I am less willing to bet my life savings on that. I doubt the organic industry would see a chemical fertilizer made with renewable energy as appropriate, but as we don’t have one, we can’t test the idea.

I am interested in your statements about cropping land being left idle in Canada. This has not been my experience on the prairies. Equally in the US, CRP land is coming out of conservation programs and back into crop production as a result of the increased prices paid for grain.

I disagree with your assessment that “companies didn't see fit to gang up and take all of the bread… there would be a lot more farmers in production today” on the basis that it just doesn’t make sense if you start to think about it. It would be perfectly possible to farm without use of gas, agrochemicals, banks, GM seed, chemical fertilizer, grain handling companies and petroleum-based transport. A few people still do. It is just that the costs of doing the alternative are so high that most farmers utilize these technologies. Also, until recently, there was plenty of cheap competition. It is the price squeeze that has been the main problem, not the cost squeeze. If grain was worth 3 times what it is today, farmers could afford all sorts of more expensive inputs.

[Grandaddy]

Lordy I'm not reading all that anyway just in case it hasn't been done then remember the conventional farmers are also GM Free. Cross breeding with GM crops would have the commercially detrimental affect of removing the GM free status of conventionally grown crops.

So it's Organic and Conventional farmers that risk losing financially with the current generation of GM crops.

[screener]

Since I have not personally gone out to find a market for gm free food, I couldn't say that there is no price differential between GM and GM free. Even if I could say that there is none, that does not mean that gm free farms should not have space allocated between themselves and gm crops.

There are more reasons than money which would induce conventional farming of non GM crops. Since GM is the unproven, new kid on the block, the responsibility should rest with it's proponents to provide the barrier space.

Cricket tragic said " it just doesn’t make sense if you start to think about it. It would be perfectly possible to farm without use of gas, agrochemicals, banks, GM seed, chemical fertilizer, grain handling companies and petroleum-based transport. A few people still do. It is just that the costs of doing the alternative are so high that most farmers utilize these technologies."

The point of my suggestion was that when the combines take all of the bread, as voiced in Murray Mclaughlins song, they by definition don't leave enough bread for the farmers. Therefore farmers are forced out of the business, hundreds of thousands in North America alone. Certainly it would be possible to farm without such inputs as GM seed, fertilizers, pesticides, fuel, operating loans, etc. The point that society needs to grasp is that there are too few farmers taking care of too much land, operating under too much debt, precisely because those companies see fit to scrape the barrel dry each year.

[UrbanFarmboy]

Organic producers, in the US atleast, do not risk anything as its the process that is certified and not the product. So even if there is gene flow, the entire crop can still be certified organic.

[screener]

I'd think that there is risk even if it is the process that is certified, because it is not the process being sold. It is the product, and if the purchaser runs a test and finds gm material mixed in, the producer might lose their market. fairly substantial risk.

[UrbanFarmboy]

Originally Posted by screener

Cricket Tragic, Whether a plan to increase the tolerance for GMied food in organic produce will fly is probably up to the consumers. Which organization is considering this and what is their reasoning?

Let's face it organic goes back a long ways before GM crops or even "conventional farming". What I meant was that organic after being reduced to very few was regaining some market share and respect due to the standard of care taken for the land and the food. If organic organizations are having to reduce those standards because GM crops are being introduced perhaps that erodes consumer acceptance.

An organic farmer that has canola as a significant part of his returns doesn't necessarily produce a high proportion of canola compared to other crops. Every little bit helps.

Much of the inspection process for organic production centers around verification and rely on honesty on the part of the farmer. Another good reason to get as much food as you can from someone close by. The requirements for isolation of crops, similar to the borders segregating certified seed crops from other crops isn't that onerous. I think it would be quite reasonable to expect farmers trying to bring new (GM) crops into an area to give their neighbours crops a wide berth.

Just so you know, organic food does not equate to increased food safety. Just look at the tomato epidemic and the spinach cases the U.S. had last year. Both were certified organic.

[screener]

UrbanFarmboy saying that organic can be unsafe is true, if standards that are established for food production aren't followed. What I'm wondering about is whether the standards for GM crop isolation are being followed, (where they have them), and whether they are sufficient to protect those farmers who are trying to achieve sustainable farming practices.

[deek]

Hi guys (says he shuffling about in the background).

I have been following some of these recent comments with interest, but have been unable to fully digest the content of all the posts due to time constraints (been a wee bit too busy of late). So if you will please excuse me jumping in without full appreciation of your views.

In my opinion, co-existence cannot work due to gene leakage from neighbouring crops (cross pollination between conventional and GM crops). This is compounded by the exceptionally long dormancy period of some seeds that escape from the contaminated crop and are left behind in the field.

I appreciate from an auditing perspective that a small percentage of cross-contamination is considered acceptable and will not compromise the classification of the crop being grown (i.e. organic crops would still be classified as organic). However, from an environmental perspective there can only be zero tolerance (i.e. zero contamination).

So, from an environmental perspective (and a practical viewpoint) I fail to see how co-existence can work.

[deek]

If a farmer’s organic crops (year on year) frequently become contaminated due to cross pollination from GM crops then the percentage of contamination is likely to increase due to the ever increasing probability of contamination from adjacent fields of GM crops and contaminated volunteers (wild GM relatives) surrounding the fields.

In my opinion, organic farming will be driven out of existence because farmers will be powerless to stop cross-contamination due to gene flow. In the end, I think farmers will have little option but to grasp the proverbial GM nettle.

In the short term this may not seem such a big deal to farmers, however, once a farmer has committed to GM cultivation there will be no going back. In the long term, the seed patent owners will control the seed prices and selectable GM attributes. The farmers will be left with few choices and will be at the mercy of the seed patent owners who will dictate seed prices. As a wise old owl might say “the tail wagging the dog”.