Life on the farm isn't what it used to be.

[Cricket Tragic]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

I have seen no proof presented in this thread that indicates any of the practices as not common, nor that they are common, though I would not be surprised if some of the depicted practices were common and or widespread.

2005 and 2006 McDonald's Animal Welfare Audits of Stunning and Handling of Beef Cattle in Australia and New Zealand

2005 Poultry Welfare Audits: National Chicken Council Animal Welfare Audit for Poultry has a Scoring System that is too Lax and Allows Slaughter Plants with Abusive Practices to Pass

Improvements in Handling and Stunning of Beef Cattle in Slaughter Plants During 1999 (Updated May 2000)

Canadian Welfare Audits

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

2005 and 2006 McDonald's Animal Welfare Audits of Stunning and Handling of Beef Cattle in Australia and New Zealand

2005 Poultry Welfare Audits: National Chicken Council Animal Welfare Audit for Poultry has a Scoring System that is too Lax and Allows Slaughter Plants with Abusive Practices to Pass

Improvements in Handling and Stunning of Beef Cattle in Slaughter Plants During 1999 (Updated May 2000)

Canadian Welfare Audits

The figures look favourable, though I doubt this information posted in itself could constitute proof beyond all reasonable doubt in the context of global scales of production. As much as I'm aware that Dr. Grandin has an overall positive reputation in the industry in some areas, I certainly would not be surprised if the figures mainly pertained to western developed nations. I think it's reasonable to suspect that many parts of the world still engage in extremely cruel animal welfare practices in animal farming. I think there is a need for cruel practices to be stopped wherever they occur and in particular in countries that don't apply the same standards as subscribed to by Grandin and thus I suspect there is need for much protest to continue.

[Cricket Tragic]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

The figures look favourable, though I doubt this information posted in itself could constitute proof beyond all reasonable doubt in the context of global scales of production. As much as I'm aware that Dr. Grandin has an overall positive reputation in the industry in some areas, I certainly would not be surprised if the figures mainly pertained to western developed nations. I think it's reasonable to suspect that many parts of the world still engage in extremely cruel animal welfare practices in animal farming. I think there is a need for cruel practices to be stopped wherever they occur and in particular in countries that don't apply the same standards as subscribed to by Grandin and thus I suspect there is need for much protest to continue.

Moving the goalposts?

The video you thought was so “note worthy” was specifically and completely about production practices in Western developed nations, specifically in the US.

I have been involved in agriculture for several decades and the worst examples of animal cruelty I have seen have all been in the developing world, places like Indonesia, Malaysia, Niger, Morocco, Bulgaria. Strangely, I rarely hear groups like chooseveg campaigning against animal cruelty in these countries. Why do you think that might be?

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

Moving the goalposts?

The video you thought was so “note worthy” was specifically and completely about production practices in Western developed nations, specifically in the US.

I have been involved in agriculture for several decades and the worst examples of animal cruelty I have seen have all been in the developing world, places like Indonesia, Malaysia, Niger, Morocco, Bulgaria. Strangely, I rarely hear groups like chooseveg campaigning against animal cruelty in these countries. Why do you think that might be?

Goal posts always change, thats the nature of evolution and I don't change my view on that. There are breaches of regulations everywhere common or otherwise. I would not be surprised to find non western and western nations engaging cruel practices of animal treatment regardless of standards. Of course what constitutes "cruel" can be subjectively interpreted and even some once accepted standards are now seen as cruel. I also wouldn't be surprised that a significant number of the standards are still seen as cruel by a significant segment of the public. Some cruel practices are gradually being phased out, but that doesn't lessen the pain and suffering of those animals that will endure such treatment until it ends. I just wouldn't be surprised at all. The site also states the following;

Today the majority of farmed animals are:

• confined to the point that they can barely move,
• denied veterinary care,
• mutilated without painkillers,
• and finally slaughtered -- often while fully conscious.

I would not be surprised to find some of these practices being wide spread. Mind you the last point occurs in the wild, so I'm not contending that. In fact I'm not contending any of the points, but it still would not surprise me if some of them were true. What one thinks of the validity and relevance of such points is another question. Factory farming is a common method of modern farming. It's evident that a growing segment of the community have increasing concerns about some factory farming methods. Very little surprises me about the nature of human behaviour.

As I said, I don't have a problem with vegetarians venting their view point on what constitutes cruelty. We are bombarded with propaganda from big business every day to buy goods and services and huge amounts of advertising dollars are spent doing this. Billions of dollars spent to shape our consumption habits and shape the way we feel about the products we consume, irrespective of the processes that occur in their production and consumer delivery, to which I suspect most consumers remain oblivious.

[Cricket Tragic]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Goal posts always change, thats the nature of evolution and I don't change my view on that. There are breaches of regulations everywhere common or otherwise.

So if it isn't what you thought it was, you make it mean something else? Let me be clear: The video that you thought was so 'note worthy' was a piece of propaganda designed to get people with little better knowledge to help a fringe group campaign about Western intensive farming practices. The video incorrectly stated that the practices shown were legal in Western countries, they are not. The video also implied the practices were common in Western countries, they are not. When presented with evidence that this is so, you now say that the video is still 'note worthy' because animal cruelty might be common or otherwise elsewhere in the world. The video had nothing to say about farming practices in the developing World. My experience with groups such as this would suggest they would actually praise the developing world for having less cruel practices, despite little or no knowledge of what goes on.

This shifting of goal posts is one of the things I find so abhorent about many activist groups. It is a case of the end justifying whatever means are available. As I have already written, this is a slippery moral slope. If you want to head down it, so be it, but expect me to point out your moral turpitude in the process.

Originally Posted by LMagic007

I would not be surprised to find non western and western nations engaging cruel practices of animal treatment regardless of standards.

I don't think I have ever said anywhere that no animal cruelty goes on in animal production. Just that it is uncommon and a lot of practices shown in the video are illegal in Western nations.

Originally Posted by LMagic007

The site also states the following;

Quote:



Today the majority of farmed animals are:
confined to the point that they can barely move,
denied veterinary care,
mutilated without painkillers,
and finally slaughtered -- often while fully conscious.

Indeed it does, but the first three statements are untrue. The majority of farmed animals in the Western world are not treated like this, because it is illegal. It is also counterproductive. The last is technically untrue as well in Western nations, as animals have to be stunned before slaughter and so are not fully conscious. However, this practise is very common in the Third world.

Originally Posted by LMagic007

I would not be surprised to find some of these practices being wide spread.

Perhaps you should do some research to find out then? I posted a number of links demonstrating they were not. Over to you to demonstrate they are.

Originally Posted by LMagic007

In fact I'm not contending any of the points, but it still would not surprise me if some of them were true.

Egad, Humpty is back. So they may or may not be true, you don't know, you are not going to bother finding out, but you are still going to contend they are true, unless of course someone criticises you for doing so, in which case you never contended it.

Originally Posted by LMagic007

What one thinks of the validity and relevance of such points is another question. Factory farming is a common method of modern farming. It's evident that a growing segment of the community have increasing concerns about some factory farming methods.

Indeed they do. If you want to have a discussion on that point, I am sure we could marshall some facts to help the discussion go along, although I note you do seem somewhat allergic to facts and take a post-modernist view to them. However, it is entirely beside the point, because the video did not say we should do away with factory farming because a growing segment of the community has concerns about it. The video said we should ban animal production in Western countries because cruel practices as shown in the video were legal and common in the industry.

Originally Posted by LMagic007

As I said, I don't have a problem with vegetarians venting their view point on what constitutes cruelty.

But that was not what the video was about. This was not chooseveg saying we believe that keeping pigs in barns or chickens in sheds is cruel. This was chooseveg stating that the cruel practices as shown in this video are legal and common and so we should ban eating animals.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

So if it isn't what you thought it was, you make it mean something else? Let me be clear: The video that you thought was so 'note worthy' was a piece of propaganda designed to get people with little better knowledge to help a fringe group campaign about Western intensive farming practices. The video incorrectly stated that the practices shown were legal in Western countries, they are not. The video also implied the practices were common in Western countries, they are not. When presented with evidence that this is so, you now say that the video is still 'note worthy' because animal cruelty might be common or otherwise elsewhere in the world. The video had nothing to say about farming practices in the developing World. My experience with groups such as this would suggest they would actually praise the developing world for having less cruel practices, despite little or no knowledge of what goes on.

Propaganda is waged every day by commercial interests on a far greater scale than the depicted video. The practices depicted in the video may be illegal but that does not mean they should not be shown. Feel free to argue what you believe to be common as others can also.

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

This shifting of goal posts is one of the things I find so abhorent about many activist groups. It is a case of the end justifying whatever means are available. As I have already written, this is a slippery moral slope. If you want to head down it, so be it, but expect me to point out your moral turpitude in the process.

Point out what you like. Well done. Nobody has to agree with you though just on your say so.

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

I don't think I have ever said anywhere that no animal cruelty goes on in animal production. Just that it is uncommon and a lot of practices shown in the video are illegal in Western nations.

Not sure anyone said you did. Well done for having a say on this noteworthy topic.

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

Indeed it does, but the first three statements are untrue. The majority of farmed animals in the Western world are not treated like this, because it is illegal. It is also counterproductive. The last is technically untrue as well in Western nations, as animals have to be stunned before slaughter and so are not fully conscious. However, this practise is very common in the Third world.

Yes well again the broader world must be considered also and if the video highlights cruelty that exists across the world, so be it. I'm not surprised to find cruelty everywhere rules or no rules. It still happens and if people want to highlight it, so be it. You are welcome to disagree. More the merrier.

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

Perhaps you should do some research to find out then? I posted a number of links demonstrating they were not. Over to you to demonstrate they are.

I don't disagree with some of the information you presented, however that does not mean cruelty does not exist in western parts of the world. Furthermore if such video raise awareness of cruelty in general, so be it. As indicated large commercial corporations engage in far greater acts of public propaganda on a regular basis. Political parties do it every election. Both spend vastly greater amounts of money trying to manipulate public opinion to buy their line, whilst keeping the public in the dark as much as possible.

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

So they may or may not be true, you don't know, you are not going to bother finding out, but you are still going to contend they are true, unless of course someone criticises you for doing so, in which case you never contended it.

I don't contend anything other than to say I'm not surprised that cruelty exists in the world despite so called regulation. I don't have a problem with cruelty being raised as an issue of public concern. We have standards, but invariably there are plenty of cases where standards are breached and suffering occurs. We even have this problem with domesticated animals. pets etc... Perhaps you should take up shadow boxing.

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

Indeed they do. If you want to have a discussion on that point, I am sure we could marshall some facts to help the discussion go along, although I note you do seem somewhat allergic to facts and take a post-modernist view to them. However, it is entirely beside the point, because the video did not say we should do away with factory farming because a growing segment of the community has concerns about it. The video said we should ban animal production in Western countries because cruel practices as shown in the video were legal and common in the industry.

Oh well that's their opinion. So be it. Yours is different. So be it.

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

But that was not what the video was about. This was not chooseveg saying we believe that keeping pigs in barns or chickens in sheds is cruel. This was chooseveg stating that the cruel practices as shown in this video are legal and common and so we should ban eating animals.

Their entitled view. Nobody said you have to agree. All the best. Enjoy your beef.

[Cricket Tragic]

Originally Posted by LMagic007

Propaganda is waged every day by commercial interests on a far greater scale than the depicted video. The practices depicted in the video may be illegal but that does not mean they should not be shown. Feel free to argue what you believe to be common as others can also.



Point out what you like. Well done. Nobody has to agree with you though just on your say so.



Not sure anyone said you did. Well done for having a say on this noteworthy topic.



Yes well again the broader world must be considered also and if the video highlights cruelty that exists across the world, so be it. I'm not surprised to find cruelty everywhere rules or no rules. It still happens and if people want to highlight it, so be it. You are welcome to disagree. More the merrier.



I don't disagree with some of the information you presented, however that does not mean cruelty does not exist in western parts of the world. Furthermore if such video raise awareness of cruelty in general, so be it. As indicated large commercial corporations engage in far greater acts of public propaganda on a regular basis. Political parties do it every election. Both spend vastly greater amounts of money trying to manipulate public opinion to buy their line, whilst keeping the public in the dark as much as possible.



I don't contend anything other than to say I'm not surprised that cruelty exists in the world despite so called regulation. I don't have a problem with cruelty being raised as an issue of public concern. We have standards, but invariably there are plenty of cases where standards are breached and suffering occurs. We even have this problem with domesticated animals. pets etc... Perhaps you should take up shadow boxing.



Oh well that's their opinion. So be it. Yours is different. So be it.



Their entitled view. Nobody said you have to agree. All the best. Enjoy your beef.

A whole post that manages to say precisely nothing.

Well done.

[LMagic007]

Originally Posted by Cricket Tragic

A whole post that manages to say precisely nothing. Well done.

Indeed perhaps your energy could have been better served without the beef.

[LMagic007]

Pig farm abuse caught on video

http://media.theage.com.au/?category=Breaking%20News&rid=41866

[Cricket Tragic]

Ex-Inghams worker attempted blackmail over chicken welfare

AdelaideNow... Ex-Inghams worker attempted blackmail over chicken welfare