------ THE SKY IS FALLING ------

[Series2]

Originally Posted by August

And let's admit it, shall we? Not many people thought all that much about the environment during the 1990s.

I don't think that's true. Environmentalism has been part of our culture for a long time now. It waxes and wanes, but from memory there was a lot of activism in the 1990's (Greenpeace, FoE, WWF etc.). Even during the height of Thatcherite Britain, the Green Party was going from strength to strength (unlike today).

There's a brief history of environmental activity from the 1960's at the New Internationalist.

It's not entirely unbiased, , but it seems to be historically accurate.

[August]

Well: no matter what you say: I kind of KNOW that people in general are taking the issue far more seriously today, in the year 2006, than they've ever done before. And that is not my biased opinion. All you have to do, is: take a visit to your local library and check out the average 1990s newspapers, then compare them to the papers of the present day.

[R33]

Originally Posted by Paradox

That depends on your motivations and interest. My interest is staying on the leading edge of discovery and sharing the information here. You are interested in business as usual from an economic standpoint. While I fundamentally share much of your ideology (limited taxes and government intervention) I have thrown in the towel and acquiesced to what I perceive as a greater priority. One which has demanded a 360 in my view of the world and our place in it. At this point I believe it is about survival, and both you (with a denialist view) and the politicians (pushing their global warming agendas at the expense of truth) are going to feel the full weight of the sledgehammer when it falls.

Climate change has passed a point of no return. Facing what lies ahead is going to require fortitude and a lot of it. Politicians and policy are lagging behind the science by about two-five years which does nobody any good. We should be preparing, but until the powers that be see the writing on the wall and understand that they to are in the crosshairs (of climate change) things will remain BAU.

This argument relies on more time passing. I think that between now and five years our global system will be turned upside down by escalating natural disasters. In time, either you will be saying 'I told you so' (lets hope) or I will be saying 'I told you so' (if I'm not foraging for my next meal).

g'night Johnboy

I appears that we both come from good right thinking stock but you seemed to have lost your way a little. Perhaps the lord is testing you and your faith in the almighty dollar.

The only difference between are points of view seems to be that you think that mother nature is about to eject her unruly creation from the planet and I don't.

Why do you think that your approaching apocolyse will reek such devastation and how will it happen? Your prediction is right on the outer reaches of even the most pessimistic computer models

Its interesting that you have picked a 5 year time span for an upsurge in natural disasters - has that anything to do with the prediction that 2012 is the peak of our particular solar cycle?

BTW if one takes a 360 one will still be heading on the same trajectory?

In what way do you see politics lagging 2 - 5 years behind science? I would have to say that politics and science are heading in opposite directions

[Paradox]

Australia calls drought summit as economy threatened - Coming Soon to a Country Near You!

Cold snap plunges swathes of Europe into blackness

After reading this thread you'll never look at snowflakes the same again.

[Paradox]

Hi R33,

Originally Posted by R33

The only difference between are points of view seems to be that you think that mother nature is about to eject her unruly creation from the planet and I don't.

I think it is a distinct 'possibility' and that's enough for me...and I don't think it will result in a complete 'ejection' (as you stated) but more of a catastrophic reorganization.

Why do you think that your approaching apocolyse will reek such devastation and how will it happen? Your prediction is right on the outer reaches of even the most pessimistic computer models

Phase 1- It will first play out with evaporation and redistribution of water resources (droughts and floods) which will reduce our ability to feed our populations. More industrialized nations aid will not be forthcoming as they struggle to prepare, feed their populations and take measures to protect against mass refugees. Extremes (Hot, Cold, Dry, Wet, Windy etc etc) will become the norm, not the exception.

Phase 2 - The sun will continue to intensify adding insult to injury. Heatwaves and drought will cause wildfires on a scale never before seen. The Amazon (the lungs of the Earth) could perish in fire and drought. Ocean currents will continue their painful reorganization and the Gulf Stream could falter under the stress of ice deterioration, currently of a scale previously found only in the most fantastic science-fiction novels. Europe could decend into a deep freeze. Larsen-C will collapse and the Ross Shelf will begin a rapid acceleration into the sea. What science thought would take millenia will transpire in a matter of years...our costal cities will be innundated and entire regions of wealth will have to evacuate their homes. Typhoons, hurricanes and Super El Nino's will punish our planet in a seemingly enless barrage of devastation.

I could go on and on but I am inclined to stop there. It's too fantastic to contemplate but the evidence exists to support my position.

Its interesting that you have picked a 5 year time span for an upsurge in natural disasters - has that anything to do with the prediction that 2012 is the peak of our particular solar sycle?

Absolutely. I am not discounting a connection to the Mayan long-count calendar either. End-of-days...? I don't believe that but I do believe an event that will challenge everything we hold true is well underway. We're resilient and resourceful beings though... we just need a conclusive understanding of what lies ahead. It doesn't exist.

BTW if one takes a 360 one will still be heading on the same trajectory?

That's twice in one week. Actually, I was just making sure you were paying attention.

In what way do you see politics lagging 2 - 5 years behind science? I would have to say that politics and science are heading in opposite directions

First, I see momentum for Anthropic Global Warming when the developing scientific research seems to be pointing to the sun as a key player. It seems to take 2-5 years to run the gambit on an accepted erroneous theory. We cannot afford such gridlock and complacency.

I agree with you about politics and science. The frenzy to achieve politically motivated goals will continue until the true nature of our predicament becomes blatently clear. At that point it may be every man for himself. The WFO is having a hard time dealing with Ethiopa right now. Imagine the challenge to the tenth power. I read something about this all being a World Government conspiracy. Ha! It's their worst nightmare.

~Paradox

[Simple]

Shaping up as the worst drought since white settlement more than 200 years ago, the "big dry" is likely to cut agricultural output by 20 percent and GDP by around 0.7 percent, government officials say.

From P's Australian article,

The article goes on to describe how the effects of this draught is putting a heavy strain on austalias ecomony.





http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ma/6113218.stm

UK is on the end of the pipeline that originate in Russia and Borax's homeland and last winter the rest of Europe weren't selling the reserves they keep to the UK and the UK doesn't keep any reserves as it relies on the matkets.

The UK economy is very fragile at present supported during the last several years not by manufacturing production or raw material wealth but by record debt and consumerism rates. These rising fuel prices affect all fuels as electricity is mainly made from gas (the reason the UK CO2 emissions have reduced since 1990 not less use of energy just more use of gas, the UK is th emost energy wasteful country in the EU).

This insecurity in the gas supply will mean a new source will have to found or allow the UK (the end of the pipe) to be open to the vagaries of the prices of the gas supply not only open to market forces but political motivation also. All this implies the gas prices will continue to go up.

This has already put buisness out of buisness in the UK and as current rates of mortage repossesion and solvency in the UK are at there highest ever sort of implies that the UK is heading an ecomonic rough patch and interest rates are rising meaning those debt bills will also grow rapidily.

The housing market is currently still inflated due to buy to let purchasers and property investors hiking up prices in the name of profit even these people however will feel the pinch soon as no one will be able to afford the rent, the heating bills and the other debt they carry as consumerism marches on.

What alternative fuels are there oil, and coal both associated with higher GHG emissions and will make the UK pledge for 70% reductions by 2050 a farce or nuclear power (never mind the bomb on your back door).

UK is not unique and China's fuel demands and domination of world markets will make it almost imposible to compete against in the fuel markets of the near future.

Seems market forces on fuel are going to change the ecomonics of the world shifting the power to countries that have the raw materials, and those who are the primary manufacturues for the world Russia, China and the middle east. N

NO wonder America 's fighting wars over there.

Maybe this fuel insecurity due to in part to the fact the UK allowed the market to extract all its gas already at cheap prices for profit ont he 1980s and 1990s will be more of an inspiration for the people of the UK to save energy in all ways possible.

Money does talk after all.

[Paradox]

Simple said, "The housing market is currently still inflated due to buy to let purchasers and property investors hiking up prices in the name of profit even these people however will feel the pinch soon as no one will be able to afford the rent, the heating bills and the other debt they carry as consumerism marches on."

YEP! Same here only we are in housing freefall. The party is officially over. The only direction from here is down - down - down. Paul and Peter are both broke. So is Uncle Sam and Uncle Chin is cutting his losses. Maybe a run at hyperinflation could squeeze the last bit of wealth from our middle-class. That's probably next. What a bunch of geniuses we've got watching over us.

Buy gold.

[Paradox]

Here's something to keep things honest and intereresting around here. Some of the Skeptics may want to brush up on their rhetoric. Monckton was kind enough to take a break from cigars and brandy at the country club to write this article. His portfolio must be taking a beating. Damn hippies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...it/nwarm05.xml

[MrBeatnik]

Hi all,

I've been directed to this thread to see if anyone can help me understand more about the relationship between normal global warming lifecycle, and how we may be affecting it.

Most information that I hear or read quotes some information "ice caps receeding at xx rate", but I have also read information that states this is normal behaviour for the world.

Ok, I hear you all shout that we may be speeding it up at an alarming rate, but I need this to be quantified... I would like to see info that shows the normal rate, with best proof possible, and and overlay showing the difference we are making with our CO2 emissions.

Currently, I hear two different sides - how can I take either as gospel?

Thanks all.

[Simple]

http://climatesci.atmos.colostate.ed...ations-of-co2/
Hi Mr Beatnik

This blog is very good ad explains CO2 forcings etc.

Have look through that most of your questions are addressed.