------ THE SKY IS FALLING ------

[JustTheFacts]

Originally Posted by Paradox

Hi Justthefacts,

Here are some more statistics: FEMA: Washington State Disaster History

Hi Paradox,

This is an easy one. That website shows the number of times that a major disaster has been declared. Politicians have been increasingly likely to pull the trigger on calling something a disaster, because it makes them look like they are concerned about people and it brings in federal money. They are riding up the bell curve. Back in 1956, they probably called a 3 standard deviation event a major disaster. Over the next ten or twenty years, the bar got lowered to 2 standard deviation events. Now a 1 standard deviation event is probably called a major disaster. I bet if we compared the 2007 "disasters" with the 1956 disasters, we would have quite a laugh.

Originally Posted by Paradox

Admittedly, a resident claiming to be run out of town by increased natural catastrophe does not necessarily make their claim accurate, but it does mean something. There are a number of studies which quantify dramatic shifts in rainfall patterns over the last few decades and as I stated, infrastructure has not kept up with the change. Here is an article siting one: Precipitation Across U.S. Intensifies Over 50 Years

That article does not describe a shift in rainfall patterns. It only describes an increase in rainfall and a corresponding decrease in snowfall. I.e., as the climate has warmed, we get more rain and less snow.

Originally Posted by Paradox

It seems absurd to deny we are living in a time of climate chaos. What do you make of the shifting jetstream? Did someone just make that up? What about the 11 year solar cycle that is in it's ... what 13th year, NO SOLAR ACTIVITY... Hmmmmm. In two months (if this solar inactivity persists) we will be officially in uncharted territory.

Throughout time, climate change has been the rule not the exception. Furthermore, I agree that we live in an age of information which heightens awareness of events and often embellishes threats for ratings. With that said, CURRENT EVENTS AND STATISTICAL DATA AND RESEARCH PROVE THAT WE ARE LIVING IN A TIME OF ABRUPT CHANGE WHICH MAY DRASTICALLY REDUCE OUR GLOBAL CARRYING CAPACITY.

Did you realize that Antarctica last year had the largest ever recorded sea-ice extent. Did you realize the sun has been in suspended animation lately (again, approaching never before recorded levels) and there is growing concern about the potential climate consequences. Were you aware of the unusual shift in Jet Stream currents? I could go on and on... Cosmic Rays, the THC, Gulf Stream, Panama Isthmus... Oh Yeah, and Anthropogenic Global Warming somewhere down at the bottom of the list.

I am still looking for the silver lining...since you seem to have found it maybe you could give me a more convincing explanation of why the above mentioned events should be of no concern to humanity.

Thanks,

~Paradox

I am not debating whether the Earth is warming or whether climate change is happening. Of course it is. That is what the Earth is all about - change. I am merely suggesting that 1) humans are not the cause of the change, and 2) the change is no different today than 100, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, 20 thousand, or 2 million years ago. The Earth and solar system are going about there merry ways. The geologically recent past has been both colder and warmer than today and humans, plants, and animals adapted just fine. Those that did not were replaced by those that did. So be it.

The other planets in the solar system have been heating up as well as Earth. That says to me that the sun is outputting more energy - not that excess CO2 is causing the Earth to heat up.

Basically, I view climate change as a non-human-related issue. Whatever happens - we will have to deal with it. There is no sense wasting energy trying to control something that we cannot control. Global climate change is not something that we can control.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by JustTheFacts

I am not debating whether the Earth is warming or whether climate change is happening. Of course it is. That is what the Earth is all about - change. I am merely suggesting that 1) humans are not the cause of the change, and 2) the change is no different today than 100, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, 20 thousand, or 2 million years ago. The Earth and solar system are going about there merry ways. The geologically recent past has been both colder and warmer than today and humans, plants, and animals adapted just fine. Those that did not were replaced by those that did. So be it.

Hi Justthefacts,

We are in agreement then, humans are not the cause of climate change. Your inference that changes were somewhat static throughout time, and were easily adapted to is another matter entirely. Records prove that climate changes were radically different throughout history. While life forged ahead, many species were brutally eradicated during spells of abrupt climate change...in the most recent hiccup (The Little Ice Age), humans were eradicated in the Northernmost areas (mainly Greenland). The rule is glaciation with temporary 'interglacials', of which we are currently in -- the Holocene interglacial to be more precise. The problem is that our lack of understanding imminent potentialities has led us to inhabit land which could quickly become uninhabitable given even the slightest cooling trend. Not only that but carrying capacity (ability to feed ourselves) would plummet seemingly overnight with no relief on the horizon. The question is whether or not we will rise to the occasion and figure out what is going to happen in order to prepare.

What I am speaking of is something most people are unable to comprehend because it goes against conventional wisdom (that being that everything just works itself out). Our global temperature plummeted last year and that continues to be the trend. Antarctica hit record levels of extent, the sun is inactive and as a result, the solar wind is not deflecting GCR's which are proven to create cloud cover and cause cooling feedback loops. In other words, something is up. CERN's CLOUD experiment will substantiate the work of Svensmark and prove Cosmic Rays are a major factor in cooling and therefore climate in general. Global Warming should be invited -- as if we would be so lucky.

The other planets in the solar system have been heating up as well as Earth. That says to me that the sun is outputting more energy - not that excess CO2 is causing the Earth to heat up.

Precisely, and I imagine that trend is now reversing as well. Any data to that effect would be welcomed.

Basically, I view climate change as a non-human-related issue. Whatever happens - we will have to deal with it. There is no sense wasting energy trying to control something that we cannot control. Global climate change is not something that we can control.

The key word is 'basically'. There are paramount reasons to understand what is coming in order to 'adapt' or 'prepare'. What I have stated here only scratches the surface of the overwhelming evidence that backs up my claim that we 'could be' on the verge (and currently experiencing) an abrupt shift in climate the likes of which we cannot comprehend. I hope I am wrong but given current trends I am not yet convinced this is the case.

~Paradox

[Bored Wombat]

Originally Posted by JustTheFacts

1) humans are not the cause of the change

That's got no scientific backing.
The greenhouse effect is kind of established physics.

Originally Posted by JustTheFacts

, and
2) the change is no different today than 100, 200, 500, 1000, 2000, 20 thousand, or 2 million years ago.

Well, it is faster than any of the other warmings, except the end of the younger dryas, but that was caused by a meteor impact, and was also a genuine disaster.

Also it is associated with a larger drop in biodiversity than at any of those times. The last time like this in terms of biological catastrophe was 65.5 million years ago at the K–T extinction event.

[Bored Wombat]

Originally Posted by Paradox

We are in agreement then, humans are not the cause of climate change.

Do you know that humans have increased the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gasses?

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by Bored Wombat

Do you know that humans have increased the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gasses?

Yes. However, I believe by-and-large that GHG's are caused by heating and the vegetation associated with heating...not the other way around. The most prosperous times in history (with the largest mammals and most abundant vegetation) were times of both heat and high concentrations of C02. I might remind you that Hummers were not present during these times.

I remain fixated on The Panama Isthmus as one of the most important climate related Earth Changing events driving our climate today. The result of this formation reduced C02 concentrations dramatically, let to massive vegetation loss, caused glaciation to take hold in the northern hemisphere, caused the sea-level to drop 45 meters and restructured our ocean currents (which are a driving force in this current cycle of glacials/interglacials). If we are ever threatened with a plunge into a sever ice-age, opening up the Panama Isthmus will be a solution -- albeit via geo-engineering on a massive scale.

Global Warming is not a threat. Cooling is...and that is what we are now experiencing regardless of the widespread fraud being force-fed to humanity.

~Paradox

[Bored Wombat]

Originally Posted by Paradox

Yes. However, I believe by-and-large that GHG's are caused by heating and the vegetation associated with heating...not the other way around.

Did you know that there's direct evidence that the GHG's come from the combustion of fossil fuels? (See: Physics Today)

Originally Posted by Paradox

The most prosperous times in history (with the largest mammals and most abundant vegetation) were times of both heat and high concentrations of C02.

Did you know that over the last 520,000,000 years greenhouse eras have had low biodiversity, and high extinction? (A long-term association between global temperature and biodiversity, origination and extinction in the fossil record, Mayhew et al.,Proc. R. Soc. B ( 2008 ) 275)

Originally Posted by Paradox

I might remind you that Hummers were not present during these times.

Right, but given that the increase in atmospheric CO2 mirrors the CO2 emissions from the combustion of fossil fuels, and that isotope ratios tie the increase in atmospheric CO2 to the combustion of fossil fuels, is it not also possible that the increase in CO2 in the current case is from the combustion of fossil fuels, including Hummers?

Originally Posted by Paradox

Global Warming is not a threat.

Current findings seem to be that it is something of a threat. Is it not already killing 150,000 per year? (Patz et al, Nature, 2005) Is it not a enormous risk to biodiversity? (Thomas et al. Nature, 2004)), and are not the economic costs genuine? (Clash: What Will Climate Change Cost Us?)

Originally Posted by Paradox

Cooling is...and that is what we are now experiencing regardless of the widespread fraud being force-fed to humanity.

Well, cooling has historically been less of a threat to biodiversity at least, and since measurements from Weather stations, ocean measurements, decreases in snow cover, reductions in Arctic sea ice, longer growing seasons, balloon measurements, boreholes and satellites all show that we are experiencing warming, and nothing shows that we are experiencing cooling, is it not possible that what we are experiencing is warming?

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by Bored Wombat

... and nothing shows that we are experiencing cooling, is it not possible that what we are experiencing is warming?

Yeah, nothing except the temperature.

Temperature Monitors Report Widescale Global Cooling

[Bored Wombat]

Originally Posted by Paradox

Yeah, nothing except the temperature.

Temperature Monitors Report Widescale Global Cooling

Temperature measurements from Weather stations, ocean measurements, decreases in snow cover, reductions in Arctic sea ice, longer growing seasons, radiosonde measurements, boreholes and satellites show warming.

What temperature measurements show cooling?

[hoon]

An ice shelf in northern Canada has shed its biggest chunk since 2005, a sign global warming is re- shaping the Arctic coastline, the Globe and Mail reported.

Bloomberg.com: Canada

[sandy winder]

I can't understand the huge reluctance for people to believe that man can effect the global climate. If a single volcano manage it, why not 6 billion people pumping millions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere 24/7? Not only does man burn fossil fuels , he also cuts down much vegetation, burns it and rears millions of animals, like cattle, that also add to the problem.

So to me there can really be no doubt that man is adding to climate change. I have yet to see any logic or evidence that can dispute this.

In the past other life forms have had a massive effect on climate so why not humans? What is so special about us?