On top of old Smokey ....

[Peter Ravenscroft]

The whole world is in a flap, because the CO2 levels on the largest active volcano on this planet have gone up. Yawn.

Mauna Loa is a basalt volcano. Those emit CO2, even and particularly at temperatures below 100 degrees C. Volcanic gases are a bit dangerous to measure directly, and so are not so well-known but fortunately for us, a daring man called T.A. Jagger measured the gases in the blisters on the lava lake of nearby Kilauea in 1919. (Encyclopeadia Britannica, 1962, vol 23. page 23. It gave 70 percent water vapour and 14 percent CO2.

So, to establish the global CO2 reference record, we might as well have stuck the gauge up the tailpipe of an old diesel truck and then slowly revved it up for the next fifty years.

Also, the regenerating lava reservoir is probably warming the coastal fringe seawater. Warming seawater releases CO2 also. The 2 degree C. annual average air temp change in Hawaii , if that effects the surface water, could neatly explain the zigzag annual sawtooth effect that Charles Keeling, who did most of the sampling for the now very famous Keeling Curve, attributed to northern hemisphere trees.

The Keeling Curve hence cannot sensibly be used as the core of the world's CO2 reference record.

Past CO2 levels have been meticulously measured at many stations by others (90,000 measurments since the nineteenth century), but those have been totally ignored by the IPCC. Why? The atmospheric CO2 readings have several times been higher than now. Maybe that explains it. See Laurence Hecht's essay at

http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.co...CO2_Record.pdf -

That one is a real eye-opener, if you are after reality and not religion.

Hooroo, all

Peter.

[spadlet]

Hiya Peter, glad you're still around.

You said you knew people in South Africa? Well last year Suz and I were trying to find out what initiatives, funding and subsidies etc were available in South Africa relating to renewable energy and microgeration. I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, I just wondered if you knew of anything.

[prashamk]

Good file (PDF) and points. I was searching co-relation between CO2 and temperature since some time. This helpful

[spot1234]

That paper is not a scientific paper, its a load of snake oil and political polemics dressed up to as a scientific paper. I would rather not go through all the horseshit within the paper, because their is an an awfull lot of padding to give it length, I suspect the author's feel that length gives gravitas. Does anyone who understands and agrees with this paper think that it contains one salient argument that they are willing to discuss and are they willing to go out on a limb to defend it?

I really expected better from some members.

[Xoote]

good info thanks

[Peter Ravenscroft]

Really did this time, sorry all.

See NOAA/CMDL ATMOSPHERIC CO2 RECORDS

That is a paper by Tans and Conway, as follows:

Tans, Pieter P. and T.J. Conway, 2005. Monthly Atmospheric CO2 Mixing Ratios from the NOAA CMDL Carbon Cycle Cooperative Global Air Sampling Network, 1968-2002. In Trends: A Compendium of Data on Global Change. Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, U.S. Department of Energy, Oak Ridge, Tenn., U.S.A.

It lists, with graphics, the CO2 records of many stations around the globe, from 1968 to 2002. They all look and climb just like Mauna Loa, zigzags and all, and the values are remarkably constistent. So, Mauna Loa is representative, the CO2 levels are going up globally, and the values are very similar over all the stations measuring.

The Keeling Curve from Hawaii is representative, my unreserved apologies to Charles Keeling. in abstentia. Also to Tans and Conway.

I am a bit grateful I found it before a forum reader shot me down in flames. Have very sporadic internet access, gadget playing up, no excuse, just an explanation. Note the internet peer review system is also not quite perfect yet

That however does not explain away Beck's past higher values for atmospheric CO2 from old records, so the long-term trend may still be as erratic as those records suggest.

But ... There is still no evidence that rising global CO2 is driving temperature changes, and as the record is so uniform around the globe, there is now a whole lot of evidence to show they are not at all in step. Also, it remains unproven that we are the main generators of the rise in CO2, and all these CO2 records suggest rather strongly that we are not, as our production of the gas has varied hugely, with wars and recessions, and the atmospheric level has risen remarkably smoothly and consistently.

Hi Spalet, Was last in SA in 1976, so the country I knew is long gone. I will see if the rellies can scratch up some contacts for you, but it will be slow.

Thanks, all readers and contributors, and my apologies to you also for any inconvenience. Reality is a moving target and science definitely has bent sights. And, I am at times damned if I can find my specs. Back to the guessing board

Hooroo

Peter