The desert is not a wasteland

[Sidewinder]

It seems as though the latest solution to climate change is to blanket the open space Mojave and Sonoran Deserts with miles and miles of solar panels. Doing this will require the scraping up of thousands of species of plants and animals. The southwest deserts have more biodiversity than most northern conifer forests. Scraping up all these plants will only make these deserts hotter and contribute more to global warming. Please talk about rooftop solar and developing only disturbed areas. Not the last open space in the west that so many life forms depend on.
Climate chage has simply become an opportunity for a bunch of new kids on the block to move up the corporate ladder. If they can actually cover the desert with solar and wind farms, these solar and wind farms will exist side by side with coal plants and fuel burning vehicles. There really are no
alternatives to fueling airplanes. Carbon emissions are here to stay with
us. Reducing it will be up to the individuals. The govenment would simply go bankrupt if people were really serious about it. That is sad. It looks to me that this new environmental fad will fade like the backlash of the James Watt years faded. If the plans to take away most of our deserts succeed, we will have no open space along with a changing climate. Environmental problems are not limited to the climate. There are serious problems with toxic pollution in our air, water, food we eat, products we buy..We dump this everywhrere and effect other plants and animals. We are very overpopulated. Species are vanishing each day and the climate is only one of the causes...yet the media seems to tunnel vision most environment problems to the climate. Not that it is not a problem, just part of a bigger picture and the other obvious details are mostly overlooked. To have the pope tell every nation that birth control is a sin after he talks about saving the environment does not make any sense to me. . To me, it will be a relief if most of these desert solar proposals fail, but the bigger picture is that the opportunity to use this new environment trend has really been handled badly. What a shame.

Those of us who live in the desert will fight these massive land grabs of "green" energy until people start to realize that the same can be achieved by putting solar panels on the roof tops of the millions of homes already in the southwest US. There are enough of these rooftops to do this without destroying one acre of undeveloped desert.

IT IS NOT GREEN TO TRASH PART OF THE EARTH TO SAVE IT!!!WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! IF YOU REALLY CARE ABOUT THE EARTH, YOU WILL NOT WANT TO KILL SO MUCH LIFE FOR SOLAR FARMS. THERE ARE OTHER WAYS!

[Wobs]

Hello, and welcome.

So nice for a new member not to be some spammer.

Feel free to introduce yourself in the Introduction forum, and dive right in.

[Sidewinder]

Hi Wobs,

Thanks for the welcome,

This below articles tell how clearing vegetation increases global warming. This is very true even in the Mojave Desert. Just compare the temperature of a concrete stripmall plaza to a desert covered with a diversity of arid adapted shrubs and cryptobiotic soil. So clearing the desert for a massive solar installation may do harm to the climate.


From "Soil Biology and Carbon Sequestration in Grasslands" by L.
Jackson, M. Potthoff, K. Steenwerth, A. O'Geen, M. Stromberg, and K.
Scow (In, California grasslands: Ecology and Management, edited by Mark
Stromberg, Jeffrey Corbin, and Carla D'Antontio, University of
California Press: Berkeley, 2007).

This could apply to Carrizo Plain grasslands and arid desert
grasslands and other shrub communities...

Grassland soils sequester or store carbon due to plant and soil
microorganism productivity, leaf and root litter accumulation (both
above and below ground) and the stability of by-products of soil
biological processes during decomposition. By storing carbon,
grasslands mitigate greenhouse gas emissions.

But when grassland soils are disturbed, such as from tilling, [or
bulldozing for solar farms], a large proportion of the soil C is lost,
previously utilized by soil microbes. Perennial plant species
especially help stabilize soil C from soil microbes, fungi, and
invertebrate communities.




Land Clearing Triggers Hotter Droughts, Australian Research Shows
ScienceDaily (Oct. 31, 2007) — A University of Queensland scientist has led groundbreaking research which shows that clearing of native vegetation has made recent Australian droughts hotter. Land Clearing Triggers Hotter Droughts, Australian Research Shows


Vegetation Essential To Balancing Climate Models; Climate Change 6,000 Years Ago In Sahara Desert Explained By MIT Scientists
Scientists at MIT who were trying to create accurate models of climate change in the southern portion of the Sahara desert found that including a realistic component of vegetation growth and decay was absolutely essential. Without including the vegetation as a variable (rather than a fixed parameter), the models were not able to show the region's transformation from a fertile expanse of vegetation 6,000 years ago to an arid stretch of mostly sand and mountains today. Vegetation Essential To Balancing Climate Models; Climate Change 6,000 Years Ago In Sahara Desert Explained By MIT Scientists

[cbacba]

you're missing the most crucial problem there sidew. granted you have some serious concerns but you didn't catch the most serious yet.

when talking of modifying large surface areas there is the albedo concern. Sand can be as high as 0.4 in albedo, which is the reflection of light/energy back out into space. Solar panels could be as low as 0.02. Note that 1.0 is a perfect mirror while 0 is a perfect black body absorber.

Earth has a nominal 0.30 albedo, most of which comes from clouds. Unfortunately, oceans tend to run about 0.03 albedo and that is over 75% of the surface.

Global temperature balance is a function of several items which include solar radiation coming down, albedo (which eliminates some of that energy), and the atmosphere which restricts somewhat the escape of that energy. As an example, variations in albedo measured over the last 20 years indicates changes and variations that reach 10% and this relates to almost twice the forcing of a co2 doubling - something that has yet to happen.

[Sidewinder]

Actually you are missing a couple points.

Sounds like you have never been o the Mojave. It is not all sand. It is a variety of substrates. Sand covers only a small part of it. A small fraction. Not all reflective.

Plus the main point was about plant matter obsorbing carbon. The most common desert plant community that these green energy eco raiders want to destroy is creosote/bursage. If one were to analize the amount of biomass in one acre of this ecosystem, one would find it compares pretty good to a grassland or just anout any other temperate ecosystem. They want hundreds of thousands of acres. That would increase much carbon ii to this planet. The only green in such energy proposals is $$$...

[Wowbagger]

Well, plants absorb carbon, but only during their life time. Most of the carbon is reclycled into the atmosphere when the plant is decomposed. If you remove the plants from an area and prevent them from being decomposed by burying them deeply, you don't add or loose any atmospherical carbon.

It doesn't really matter tho, since global warming is good and should be hoped for.

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

Well, plants absorb carbon, but only during their life time. Most of the carbon is reclycled into the atmosphere when the plant is decomposed. If you remove the plants from an area and prevent them from being decomposed by burying them deeply, you don't add or loose any atmospherical carbon.

It doesn't really matter tho, since global warming is good and should be hoped for.

You missed the point about the decomposers as well. Soil is not dead. Mycorrhiza mycelium fungi and other decomposers make soil rich, even in the desert. Living crusts called cryptobiotic soils are actually abundant in arid regions.

Keep praying for climate change. Your wish seems to be coming true. Sarcasm is easy. Solutions to this complex problem are not. You are not helping your cause.

[spadlet]

I hope you'll forgive me if this is an amazingly stupid question but why does the whole of the soil surface need to be destroyed to convert some of the solar energy?

Products are being invented that encapculate the photovoltaic sheets into glass, either as opaque patterns on the glass, or i have seen one produce where the photovoltaic layer acts like the layer used to tint glass. Wouldn't the use of surfaces like these, mounted on a structure that had periodic foundations, allow some of the current life and ecosystem to remain?

[Sidewinder]

That's a good question.

The thing is, many of the panels will need maintenance which usually means access for vehicles. The big mirror reflector system near Eldorado Dry Lake in Nevada needs o be checked each day. This means scraping vegetation/soils.

Which also reminds me that another issue with all of these solar farms will be dust. To clean dust off of panels will require a lot of water. The water wars in the southwest are already out of control. Many of these will either require wells or water to be trucked in from near by sources. Water is a scarcity out here. This issue alone will increase the cost of operation. It will require a large buy out of existing water rights.

If you could put a panel on each rooftop in a city like Palm Springs of Las Vegas, you would get as much power as any one of these large pieces of desert they are looking at. To me that is the no brainer win/win...

I am getting a solar well pump his summer. I would be off the grid if it would not cost me 45,000.00. Prices for the consumer need to come down.

[Wowbagger]

Beside, living organisms would probably benefit from solar panels in the deserts. Soil bacteria more than others. It's because of something that has to do with water and evaporation...