The desert is not a wasteland

[Sidewinder]

"It's because of something that has to do with water and evaporation... "

Please explain. This should be good. You sound like a real athourity...

[Wowbagger]

You sound like a real authority

I am, really.

You see, the sun emit energy, which the ground absorb and transform into heat. The water at the surface of the ground then gain kinetic energy and overcome the liquid-phase intermolecular forces that usually keep water liquid. The more kinetic energy water molecules have, the higher the rate of evaporation is.

Living beings need water. That's because the first living beings to appear were living in water and used the chemical property of water to maintain their metabolisms, a quality everyone received from heredity... So water influence the prevalence on earth of finding living organisms for the reason that we need, among other things, water.

If you remove some of the heat generated by the sun, e.g. through the use of solar panels, less kinetic energy will be present at the surface of the ground, and the rate at which water will evaporate will slow down. This will allow living organism to use this water to grow and replicate...

From the nanosolar blog, you can read "In fact, in dry regions, the solar panels even benefit the ecosystem by increasing the moisture level in the soil."

[spadlet]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

From the nanosolar blog, you can read "In fact, in dry regions, the solar panels even benefit the ecosystem by increasing the moisture level in the soil."

But, if the moisture levels rose darmatically, wouldn't that alter the competitive advantage of various species? If that was the case it could have a major impact on the ecological system.

Wouldn't it also depend on how isolated the desert ecostystem was from ones with higher moisutre levels? If there was, purely for example, a forest on the edge of the desert, and the solar panels were located nearby, the increase in ground moisture levels may produce conditions under which seeds from the trees could germinate. Even if the trees were cut down to prevent shading of the solar panels, the time taken to sut them down might have been long enough for conditions to develop in which other plants from the forest had migrated, possibly along with some animals. They would be a serious threat to the organisms specially adapted to desert conditions.

I was thinking about the cleaning issue. How possible would it be to develop solar panels with an inbuilt cleaning system? The waster could be stored in a tank, then sprayed on the panels when they were inclined. Admitidely some water would be lost to evapouration, but if it was designed properly, I would have thought it possible to have a drain at the bottom of hte panel which collected the majority of the water. The water could then be passed through a filtration system ready for use next time cleaning was required. It wouldn't prevent the need for any water but it may reduce the quantity required.

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

I am, really.

You see, the sun emit energy, which the ground absorb and transform into heat. The water at the surface of the ground then gain kinetic energy and overcome the liquid-phase intermolecular forces that usually keep water liquid. The more kinetic energy water molecules have, the higher the rate of evaporation is.

Living beings need water. That's because the first living beings to appear were living in water and used the chemical property of water to maintain their metabolisms, a quality everyone received from heredity... So water influence the prevalence on earth of finding living organisms for the reason that we need, among other things, water.

If you remove some of the heat generated by the sun, e.g. through the use of solar panels, less kinetic energy will be present at the surface of the ground, and the rate at which water will evaporate will slow down. This will allow living organism to use this water to grow and replicate...

From the nanosolar blog, you can read "In fact, in dry regions, the solar panels even benefit the ecosystem by increasing the moisture level in the soil."

That's the best BS I have heard all week! Living crusts and soil microbes would not be able to survive in warm, arid regions if there was not a heat/tolorance factor. Plus the organic layer would stabolize the evaporation. Look it up, and try to use a library and not a blog. Plus if you scrape the organic layer off, you get no buffer. We are talking about living matter supressing carbon, not shade. You can't better a balanced ecosystem.

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by spadlet

I was thinking about the cleaning issue. How possible would it be to develop solar panels with an inbuilt cleaning system? The waster could be stored in a tank, then sprayed on the panels when they were inclined. Admitidely some water would be lost to evapouration, but if it was designed properly, I would have thought it possible to have a drain at the bottom of hte panel which collected the majority of the water. The water could then be passed through a filtration system ready for use next time cleaning was required. It wouldn't prevent the need for any water but it may reduce the quantity required.

Good thoughts, but in the US anyways, water rights are so hot in the arid regions, this would be negotiable compared to the size of the solar projects they are proposing. That finite water would have to be bought and there will be long heated battles over it.

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by spadlet

But, if the moisture levels rose darmatically, wouldn't that alter the competitive advantage of various species? If that was the case it could have a major impact on the ecological system.

Wouldn't it also depend on how isolated the desert ecostystem was from ones with higher moisutre levels? If there was, purely for example, a forest on the edge of the desert, and the solar panels were located nearby, the increase in ground moisture levels may produce conditions under which seeds from the trees could germinate. Even if the trees were cut down to prevent shading of the solar panels, the time taken to sut them down might have been long enough for conditions to develop in which other plants from the forest had migrated, possibly along with some animals. They would be a serious threat to the organisms specially adapted to desert conditions.

Great response. Ecology is complex. It needs to be looked at as a balance between a variety of complex specifics to location over periods of time that far surpass the human lifespan.. Usually shortcut modifications creat several unexpected variables.

[Wowbagger]

Living crusts and soil microbes would not be able to survive in warm, arid regions if there was not a heat/tolorance factor.

The question isn't if they can survive, but how many of them can survive in term of biomass. You'll understand that the biomass in an area of a rainforest is bigger than for the same area of a desert. So, again, in arid places like a desert more water = more biomass.

It might seem logical that an anthropogenic modification of an established condition will have negative effects on an ecosystem, but this is not always true. Clean air could kill the Amazon, researchers say | Environment | Reuters

Also, if the temperature change on a global scale, it will surely change the natural balance within ecosystems. However, new and different balances will take place. These ecosystem might be different, but their values will not. One ecosystem isn't better than another ecosystem, unless maybe we hold an utilitarian perspective, then global warming will create ecosystems of higher values to us.

[Sidewinder]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

The question isn't if they can survive, but how many of them can survive in term of biomass. You'll understand that the biomass in an area of a rainforest is bigger than for the same area of a desert. So, again, in arid places like a desert more water = more biomass.

It might seem logical that an anthropogenic modification of an established condition will have negative effects on an ecosystem, but this is not always true. Clean air could kill the Amazon, researchers say | Environment | Reuters

Also, if the temperature change on a global scale, it will surely change the natural balance within ecosystems. However, new and different balances will take place. These ecosystem might be different, but their values will not. One ecosystem isn't better than another ecosystem, unless maybe we hold an utilitarian perspective, then global warming will create ecosystems of higher values to us.

You are still missing the point that the plant cover of the desert will create more shade and water than any solar panel. Plus you are still missing the point about organic material storing carbon. A synthetic cover will not create any decomposers. You can not better this with a theory from an amature blog. Why would you want to destroy so much of Mother Earth to save her? That is just foolish when there are so many rooftops and other disturbed areas to use first.

Plus ecosystems do not always collapes if temps go up or down. Exaptive adaptations allow for some flexibility. Most proposals to blanket hundreds of square miles of public lands are not thinking of the potential costs to the climate that will result in the obvious eradicatin of billions of tons of carbon storing biomass. We should be coming up with clean energy that does not eradicate biodiversity. The current so called "green" phase does not even consider this. Very unimpressive.

[Wowbagger]

A synthetic cover will not create any decomposers.

I don't see why you couldn't install solar panels without adding a synthetic cover. These panels can be quite big and are usually posed at an angle, so that there's plenty of room underneath allowing for plants to grow. Look at this picture for example: http://www.nanosolar.com/images/beck_kif_1339k.jpg . It's a small picture, but you can clearly see that the panels don't take all the room and the cover isn't synthetic, reducing the perturbation caused.

Why would you want to destroy so much of Mother Earth to save her?

Sometimes an anthropogenic modification of a natural area can be beneficial rather than destructive. This can be the case with solar panels installed in the desert.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

Also, if the temperature change on a global scale, it will surely change the natural balance within ecosystems. However, new and different balances will take place. These ecosystem might be different, but their values will not. One ecosystem isn't better than another ecosystem, unless maybe we hold an utilitarian perspective, then global warming will create ecosystems of higher values to us.

But many human societies have been built around a certain type of ecosystem and are heavily dependant on that not changing too much from year to year. Food production will especially fall into this category. If the ecology of a whole region changes then the human systems that depended upon that ecology could be put under extreme stress.